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Level 111 (World 5&6) - To Land Much Below! - Rev. 1.3 available, contains more fun and leeway
Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Old Contests & Events - SMW Central Production 1.5 - Level 111 (World 5&6) - To Land Much Below! - Rev. 1.3 available, contains more fun and leeway
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So I'm working on fixing up my level a bit, mainly making tweaks here and there without trying to make major changes to the level design. I know how nefarious my level was to the hack not only because of the gimmick, but because there were major obstructions to pacing properly, throwing players into a fit of rage and despair. I know the time gimmick is a lot but I feel like if I remove it the whole level design is gonna feel weird.

So far I fixed about 8 problematic jumps and starting working on making the Yoshi coins easier to get. I also reverted changes made to my level that were made without my permission (making progression confusing as hell), they weren't intentional as there were some issues that were beyond my knowledge requiring them to make the changes.

I'll post an IPS soon (with a broken Mario Palette I can't seem to fix), also I would like to remark how much I find that all 4 pansers are in one sprite based on x-position are unbearable. (I'm too lazy to upload screenshots unless necessary)

Also, welcome to general comments about the original level and about the updates I'll be posting.

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
If you insist on keeping the time water gimmick, make sure you give the player a lot more leeway. One thing I remember vividly about that level is how absurdly fast you had to go to even have a chance, and following up something like Sanctuary Fortress with that was a bit too extreme.

Looking forward to seeing updates.
In the second Room, the Tweeters can "climb" the walls, WT*? Also, you can carry every Bob-omb to the other room, appearing with glitched graphics (Thwomp's inversed angry tile). This room is a little hard because the "Time set" tiles set the time to 20 and because this is a little harder, you need to put to 30 or 40 to reduce the difficulty. Also, in the Para-Beetle room, a strange coin is in the Up-Left corner of the screen. I collected it and only gived me one coin. #tb{D'X}

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Userbar by Green Jerry

Also a Fortaleza Reznor user. If you... digo, si hablas español, hackeas, buscas ayuda, o simplemente se te da conocer gente, únete, somos puerta abierta.
I take it by your post that you're planning on keeping every room in the level? I mean, To Land Much Below is pretty long:

Intro Area (Minor)
P-Block Area
1st Timer Block Area
2nd Timer Block Area
Midpoint Area (Minor)
1st Checkerboard Platform Area
2nd Checkerboard Platform Area
Desert Area

That's six major areas, four of which have completely different concepts. Even the individual timer block and checkerpoint areas feel significantly different thanks to the enemy types used.

To be honest, I only ever enjoyed the concepts in the second half. Personally I'd rather you expand upon those and leave the timer shenanigans to something like Time Up Tunnels, but oh well. Good luck with the changes.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Originally posted by AxemJinx
I take it by your post that you're planning on keeping every room in the level?

Well, I was first going to see if editing the level to make gameplay smoother would allevieate the issues of length (I personally thought it wasn't that bad in length since the rooms were kinda short for each area). Honestly, if it can't be helped, I'm going to redesign the first temple portion to be more of a vertical descent like the second half.

Anyway, here's a small attempt at fixing up the level (kinda notable changes in each room). I mainly tried to fix jumps that were too claustrophobic as well as horrid muncher placement. Second cloud area has a new palette.

{deleted}

DISCLAIMER: I can't edit the 20 second block's time value yet since I don't have the resources needed, so assume that it's going to be 25 seconds.

I will appreciate any sort of feedback from people who experience the original to those who haven't touched it.

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
I noticed you changed a bunch of jumps around the second timer run in the panser room, and replaced a couple of pansers with firebars. That did make things more bearable, but that timer run plus the first two in the final temple area still give you very little leeway at only 20 in-game seconds, and the rest aren't much easier. I'm not convinced 25 would be enough, either. I know the layout and I still barely make it. Maybe 35?

Did I enjoy the first half with this version? Nah. But I've been biased against it from the start, so see what other people think.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Originally posted by AxemJinx
I noticed you changed a bunch of jumps around the second timer run in the panser room, and replaced a couple of pansers with firebars. That did make things more bearable, but that timer run plus the first two in the final temple area still give you very little leeway at only 20 in-game seconds, and the rest aren't much easier. I'm not convinced 25 would be enough, either. I know the layout and I still barely make it.
I kind of want to use different sprites for this level, but I have no idea what custom sprites are in the rom. The more I play it, the more I feel that these pansers were a bad idea, as they don't have a repeated cycle of movement/firing flame projectiles. It's a terrible thing when you only have 20 seconds at hand, so firebars are a bit more predictable and easier to maneuver around. I also thought that the section could use a power-up reward and introduce the idea in a better way, so the first 20 second segment has been changed.

I'm welcome to ideas of other sprites I could use, other than standard SMW ones.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Did I enjoy the first half with this version? Nah. But I've been biased against it from the start, so see what other people think.
I know not everyone is a fan of time gimmicks but I really do like the racing feeling! Plus it feels a bit more fair than having a "longer" short time limit without any places to rest.

Anyway, here's an updated time thing segment with updated-ish graphics.

{deleted}

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
If you're going for increased timer block frequency, like in this version, then yeah, maybe 25 is okay. I'd also suggest adding some timer blocks to the left of that p-block in the first run of the final temple section, then take the row just below the brown blocks and move them a bit further down the path- say, a few jumps' worth.

I agree about the pansers being a bad fit. It's hard to pay attention to (a) which type it is and (b) how many fireballs it's about to throw (1? 2? 3?) when you're in a rush. Anything more predictable is fine. Apart from the firebars, how about those enemies that just go back and forth in a line until they hit a wall or ceiling (used in Palace Acropolis)? I don't see why it has to be a custom enemy, though- if it works, it works.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
I'm playing 1.1 as I write this, so I'll be typing up things for consideration here as I go:

- Looks like we'll have to give the graphics a revamp to a more consistent style. Isn't this set from Kirby's Dream Land 3?

- The tweeters in the second room get hung up on the corners of blocks really easily and spaz out.
- I couldn't reach the first door in the second room without shell-jumping, and when I went in the door, I was insta-killed. D:

- The second part of the first time up-themed room is easily broken with a cape.
- The panser on screen 03 can be landed upon blindly.
- Does the time-draining water really need to stay? :P I mean, it's only in this one indoor section and is never seen again.

- I think the third outdoor section's time limits are too strict, but you're already going to address that. I echo AxemJinx's plea to get rid of the time-up gimmick altogether, though.
- Also, at the end of this area, there are coins over a hole that make me think I need to go down there and ignore the door, but it leads to death.

- In the first room after the midpoint, I think it needs to be more obvious that the player can fall through the clouds to their death because there are other levels in the hack that have walkable cloud tiles (in fact, there are some in the very next section of this level!).
- The custom swooper bats need to either be tweaked or they need to be removed.
- Also, slow the green para-beetles down a bit. It's easy to jump right into them if you don't know they're going to fly across the spot you're jumping to.

- In the pink sky section, the note block sprites are glitchy-looking.
- Return of the Cave Story enemies! I finally played Cave Story back in 2012, so I now know how these sprites behave, but their presence is slightly odd outside of the Wind Fortress music.
- This is very minor, but in the final part of this section, it's not obvious that that spot between the two pillars is a warp point.

- I like how the end of the level ties into the desert. It's not very thematically consistent with the other rooms in the level, but it does give a sense of progress.

Whew. Sorry for the laundry list there. Your level was one of the bigger offenders, though, and I want you to be able to salvage it. :)
Originally posted by Mineyl
I'm playing 1.1 as I write this, so I'll be typing up things for consideration here as I go:
No problem, I really need as much detailed feedback as possible to make sure this level is above tolerable to play.

Originally posted by Mineyl
- Looks like we'll have to give the graphics a revamp to a more consistent style. Isn't this set from Kirby's Dream Land 3?
Yes, this is one of my favorite sets from KDL3 (also was a pain in the butt to rip back in the day), but I also noticed that it's terribly inconsistent with the rest of the game. If there was a soul kind enough to make a tileset near akin to it, I would greatly appreciate it. I really love the palette glow animation in the second room and I don't think any other tileset can put it off. If not, I wouldn't mind using Counterfort's tileset as long as I could think of a new glow effect for it.

Originally posted by Mineyl
- The tweeters in the second room get hung up on the corners of blocks really easily and spaz out.
One of the biggest flaws in this level was the choice to use custom sprites. I somehow managed to pick the worst when it came to the level I was designing, as they weren't in their nature type of 'battlefield'. Broken shyguys, Tweeters from hell, non-standard cycle pansers, sniper para-beetles/bats, and Cave story flying thingys. I'll find a way to rectify that, though, I'm not gonna be careless when fixing this up!

Originally posted by Mineyl
- I couldn't reach the first door in the second room without shell-jumping, and when I went in the door, I was insta-killed. D:


Originally posted by Mineyl
- The second part of the first time up-themed room is easily broken with a cape.
I'm okay with this, as SMW had the same issues. I don't want to force the player to do everything if they got the goods to thwart my plans.

Originally posted by Mineyl
- The panser on screen 03 can be landed upon blindly.
I think I'll raise the ground for the panser and see how that works out
Originally posted by Mineyl
- Does the time-draining water really need to stay? :P I mean, it's only in this one indoor section and is never seen again.
It was an alternative to bottomless pits + you can still make it if you jump out fast enough, but I can redesign it into a more intuitive trap (everyone loves invisible coin-block pits).

Originally posted by Mineyl
- I think the third outdoor section's time limits are too strict, but you're already going to address that. I echo AxemJinx's plea to get rid of the time-up gimmick altogether, though.
Yeah, I think the gimmick will be better handled if there are more rest stops. And as I said before, if in the end I can't manage to make the gimmick be more like a fair obstacle, I'll redesign the level without it.
Originally posted by Mineyl
- Also, at the end of this area, there are coins over a hole that make me think I need to go down there and ignore the door, but it leads to death.
I thought the opposite would happen because of the p-switch block but that proves wrong yet again :D

Originally posted by Mineyl
- In the first room after the midpoint, I think it needs to be more obvious that the player can fall through the clouds to their death because there are other levels in the hack that have walkable cloud tiles (in fact, there are some in the very next section of this level!).

Originally posted by Mineyl
- The custom swooper bats need to either be tweaked or they need to be removed.
Well, I personally would like it if there was an "alert" phase to the sprite (pauses for a bit then makes a swoop down sound), but I think I'll edit the ground for it to be easy to dodge.
Originally posted by Mineyl
- Also, slow the green para-beetles down a bit. It's easy to jump right into them if you don't know they're going to fly across the spot you're jumping to.
Noted, I think I'll have to remove them because they're basically like silent bullet bills. That or use purple coins to note where they are coming from.

Originally posted by Mineyl
- In the pink sky section, the note block sprites are glitchy-looking.
I forgot about that :V, I'll just replace it with a springboard.
Originally posted by Mineyl
- Return of the Cave Story enemies! I finally played Cave Story back in 2012, so I now know how these sprites behave, but their presence is slightly odd outside of the Wind Fortress music.
All according to plan, muhahaha.
Originally posted by Mineyl
- This is very minor, but in the final part of this section, it's not obvious that that spot between the two pillars is a warp point.
Noted, I think it will be fine if I push the teleport gap to the right and put the two platforms with ?-block together.

Originally posted by Mineyl
- I like how the end of the level ties into the desert. It's not very thematically consistent with the other rooms in the level, but it does give a sense of progress.
I honestly design that part of the level because I wanted a desert level but lost it via a random draw, glad you like it though!

Originally posted by Mineyl
Whew. Sorry for the laundry list there. Your level was one of the bigger offenders, though, and I want you to be able to salvage it. :)
I thinkit's time to redeem myself from being the run ender of SMWCP, because I know a bunch of users who stopped playing because of my level. Thanks a bunch for the detailed analysis, greatly appreciated!

I'll make a bunch of changes today and post up an IPS tonight, hopefully. To other people, feel free to leave comments on the level even if I'm currently making changes, any feedback is welcome!

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
Originally posted by TLMB
Originally posted by Mineyl
- Does the time-draining water really need to stay? :P I mean, it's only in this one indoor section and is never seen again.
It was an alternative to bottomless pits + you can still make it if you jump out fast enough, but I can redesign it into a more intuitive trap (everyone loves invisible coin-block pits).


The problem with the time-draining water is that is doesn't always work. The time could start draining, then just stop, then start again for no discernible reason. This was also a problem with time up tunnels.

I know you have the resources to fix it at the moment (like the time blocks), just pointing this out.
Originally posted by TLMB
Yes, this is one of my favorite sets from KDL3 (also was a pain in the butt to rip back in the day), but I also noticed that it's terribly inconsistent with the rest of the game. If there was a soul kind enough to make a tileset near akin to it, I would greatly appreciate it. I really love the palette glow animation in the second room and I don't think any other tileset can put it off. If not, I wouldn't mind using Counterfort's tileset as long as I could think of a new glow effect for it.

If you could point out which ExGFX files they are in the ROM, I could try editing them. I might not get around to it for a month or two, but it's not like we're expecting to have this whole thing fixed by the end of the week or anything, so yeah.

Originally posted by Mineyl
- I couldn't reach the first door in the second room without shell-jumping, and when I went in the door, I was insta-killed. D:

I hope you took note of this even though you forgot to say anything about it. Hehe. I'm sure it was a reset door or a bug-testing thing or something.

Originally posted by TLMB
It was an alternative to bottomless pits + you can still make it if you jump out fast enough, but I can redesign it into a more intuitive trap (everyone loves invisible coin-block pits).

Oh, I understand that. However, the thing is, this is the first time the player will ever see this water and there is no introduction to what it does until they've slipped in and die for no apparent reason. If they were bottomless pits or lava, at least the player would be aware of the danger. You know?

Originally posted by TLMB
I thought the opposite would happen because of the p-switch block but that proves wrong yet again :D

You would be right, but I was really rushing through this section because of the time-up gimmick and I never actually made it to those blocks while the short p-block effect was active in the three or four times I tried it. If the blocks had the normal amount of p-switch time, it would have worked out like you planned (it's not like that's a hard jump for world-5-technically-world-6, anyway).

Originally posted by TLMB
Well, I personally would like it if there was an "alert" phase to the sprite (pauses for a bit then makes a swoop down sound), but I think I'll edit the ground for it to be easy to dodge.

The alert phase sounds like a pretty good idea. I'm mostly commenting on how they're either very easy to dodge (just jump straight up) or almost impossible to dodge (jumping forward). If they approached Mario from their traditional vanilla SMW trajectory, except faster, I think that'd be a good compromise to make them threatening while not being too much of an obstacle individually.

Originally posted by TLMB
Noted, I think I'll have to remove them because they're basically like silent bullet bills. That or use purple coins to note where they are coming from.

Even better: put a caution sign over the spot they'll overlap when the player gets there. :)
Originally posted by Mineyl
If you could point out which ExGFX files they are in the ROM, I could try editing them. I might not get around to it for a month or two, but it's not like we're expecting to have this whole thing fixed by the end of the week or anything, so yeah.


I'll Tell you as soon as I'm done, maybe you might be able to clean everything up into fewer ExGFX files. Also, I forgot to note that I noted your note on the door.

So I addressed the current suggestions while adding my own improvements, and I'm starting to feel the first half is becoming much better to play, their might even be feelings of fun (I'm having fun in the least)! However, as I play through the second half, the sky sections is starting to feel horribly designed and I'm not sure what to do, but I made changes to at least get a better direction/fair play.

I really need someone to fix the tweeters and the sniper swooper bats.

Anyway, here's an IPS, it contains a lot of changes that I can't really go into much detail:

Click Me!rev1.3

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
Got around to playing this version.

--Thank you for lowering that jump in the first temple area where you have to jump away from a steep slope with precise timing. I forgot to mention it before, but it feels much less annoying now.
--In the panser room, the springboard kind of gets in the way where it currently is. How about setting it into a small alcove to the left of the powerup block? Also, you might want to give two tiles' space for the shell to hit the vine block, because if you throw it at full speed, it might get stuck rolling above the block. Otherwise this room feels much better than it did before, thanks to the higher frequency of timer blocks.
--The timer block distribution in the last temple room also feels much better. I think maybe you could even remove the first one after the row of brown blocks, and just keep the second one, but either way is fine. Also, I'm not sure about including that pipe where the yoshi coin is behind the brown block column- players might waste a couple of seconds testing it for an exit.
--The warning signs for the green winged shell enemies were a good idea. You can't tell exactly when they'll approach, but you'll know where, and that's enough information to deal with them.
--Cave Story enemy behavior in the last cloud section is a bit erratic. Sometimes the ceilings are just high enough that they'll begin the helicopter animation, but then cut it off and drop, like they're faking you out. I'd consider adjusting the ceiling heights to avoid those kinds of situations, if possible. I don't know how well that would work, though- it might just be a quirk of the sprite itself.

Overall, it definitely plays better, and raising the timer blocks to 25 seconds will help, especially with the new distribution.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Oh yes, this is a lot better than it was. I echo what AxemJinx said about it, though, with the following additions:

- This is very minor, but I think you should move the tweeter at the very first part of the level to the right. It's a small nitpick of mine to see a sprite moving away from Mario before I can possibly interact with it. :)



- That blind panser I mentioned a couple of days ago is still a problem, so maybe try doing this to it. It's a little harder to get by when you first come down here, but you'll no longer land on it because you didn't know it was there.

- One puddle of time-up water left! I think it needs to either be erased or you need to call attention to it in one of the graciously-provided message blocks earlier in the room (consider replacing the first bed of spikes with the water so you can be like, "this is time-up water," or something).
Originally posted by Mineyl
One puddle of time-up water left!

I forgot to mention this before, but I don't think you should use the timer water, either, or even bottomless pits or lava. The low time limit from the blocks is enough of an immediate threat as it is. Just my opinion, though.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
By the way, there was one last thing I failed to list earlier: I'm glad that falling through the coins right before the midpoint room no longer leads to death, but you really didn't have to extend the level like that. Just remove the coins and everyone'll know to jump over that pit.
Originally posted by AxemJinx
--Thank you for lowering that jump in the first temple area where you have to jump away from a steep slope with precise timing. I forgot to mention it before, but it feels much less annoying now.
That was actually one of the first things I did, in fact, I made a ton of jumps outside of the time sections more natural.
Originally posted by AxemJinx
--In the panser room, the springboard kind of gets in the way where it currently is. How about setting it into a small alcove to the left of the powerup block? Also, you might want to give two tiles' space for the shell to hit the vine block, because if you throw it at full speed, it might get stuck rolling above the block. Otherwise this room feels much better than it did before, thanks to the higher frequency of timer blocks.
I originally planned to have the side to be an extra reward, but you are right about the springboard being in the way. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one who felt it was troublesome. Also, noted the vine block issue.


Originally posted by AxemJinx
--The timer block distribution in the last temple room also feels much better. I think maybe you could even remove the first one after the row of brown blocks, and just keep the second one, but either way is fine. Also, I'm not sure about including that pipe where the yoshi coin is behind the brown block column- players might waste a couple of seconds testing it for an exit.

Did both suggestions, seems fair.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
--The warning signs for the green winged shell enemies were a good idea. You can't tell exactly when they'll approach, but you'll know where, and that's enough information to deal with them.
That's thanks to Mineyl.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
--Cave Story enemy behavior in the last cloud section is a bit erratic. Sometimes the ceilings are just high enough that they'll begin the helicopter animation, but then cut it off and drop, like they're faking you out. I'd consider adjusting the ceiling heights to avoid those kinds of situations, if possible. I don't know how well that would work, though- it might just be a quirk of the sprite itself.
Ugh, this room and these sprites. I gotta observe they're natural behavior and rework the section around them. Thanks for the heads up!

Originally posted by Mineyl
- This is very minor, but I think you should move the tweeter at the very first part of the level to the right. It's a small nitpick of mine to see a sprite moving away from Mario before I can possibly interact with it. :)


Originally posted by Mineyl
- That blind panser I mentioned a couple of days ago is still a problem, so maybe try doing this to it. It's a little harder to get by when you first come down here, but you'll no longer land on it because you didn't know it was there.
I did a variation of your suggestion, so the panser can remain a threat when entering and leaving, but is no longer blind.

- Time up water's time is up! Due to the heat from the firebars and pansers they no longer exist for no reason. I wanted to add a different trap but I'll trust Axemjinx and hope I don't make things too easy.

Originally posted by Mineyl
By the way, there was one last thing I failed to list earlier: I'm glad that falling through the coins right before the midpoint room no longer leads to death, but you really didn't have to extend the level like that. Just remove the coins and everyone'll know to jump over that pit.
This is deliberate for people who I've seen rush into this pit even if there were no coins. plus it's just plan silly and I like being plain silly.

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...

Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

- Mario palette is all sorts of LOL.
- Level was much more reasonable, but feels like a mishmash of ideas.
- The timer gimmick should either last through the entire level or be moved to Time Up Tunnels so a descent style gameplay can be more focused on.
- Dive-bombing Swoops can FOAD.
- You use way too many clashing styles. Find one or two and stick to it In fact, your enemy usage is all over the place.
- The timer only gave me 20 seconds as opposed to 25, but the distribution was more managable.
- Also when this level gets inserted, the timer gimmick will be mucked up for a while until a custom timer can be decided on.

- Temple/Timer feels better designed, but the cloud segments feel tacked on with is clashing gameplay.

Originally posted by MrDeePay
- Mario palette is all sorts of LOL.
I "fixed" it :V
Originally posted by MrDeePay
- Level was much more reasonable, but feels like a mishmash of ideas.
Was... ;~;
Originally posted by MrDeePay
- Dive-bombing Swoops can FOAD.
If any coder is will, me and mineyl have a suggestion that'd make them easier to handle and fairer to place in a level.
Originally posted by MrDeePay
- You use way too many clashing styles. Find one or two and stick to it In fact, your enemy usage is all over the place.
technically all of the foreground graphics came from the same game, and they all have the same style. I know what you mean though. Also, I'm working on that sprite issue right now
Originally posted by MrDeePay
- The timer only gave me 20 seconds as opposed to 25, but the distribution was more managable.
I'm currently using the base rom to edit my level, so I don't have the resources to change it.
Originally posted by MrDeePay
- Also when this level gets inserted, the timer gimmick will be mucked up for a while until a custom timer can be decided on.

Hopefully that will be an easy fix, as adding a sprite timer isn't impossible (an edited version of the SMWCP2 clock magician would be nice, but only the clock would be needed)
Originally posted by MrDeePay
- Temple/Timer feels better designed, but the cloud segments feel tacked on with is clashing gameplay.
- The timer gimmick should either last through the entire level or be moved to Time Up Tunnels so a descent style gameplay can be more focused on.
I totally agree, I'm going to throw out the original cloud sections and redesign them with the time gimmick in mind, but used in a more creative way.

Idea for the new cloud section:
- One one long room as opposed to two rooms.
- It's going to be a free fall section, so completely vertical.
- As you fall, there will be time blocks as well as obstacles in the way, either being cloud masses or flying enemies. You have to make sure to keep falling into time blocks

Ideas for the second half are welcome.

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
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