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Level 128 (World 7) - Water-Logged Woods [Planning]
Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Old Contests & Events - SMW Central Production 1.5 - Level 128 (World 7) - Water-Logged Woods [Planning]
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This is my other level in the hack, Water-Logged Woods. Hopefully I can have the hyphen added if people don't think it's too cheesy. It's supposed to be a joke!

Anyways, this level isn't exactly high on my priority list at the moment, so no fancy editor shots, just an outline of what I'd like to change in no particular order of importance:

- The level in general needs a difficulty increase considering it's the last course before the game's final switch palace (and appears on a very optional path, to boot).
- Find a way to extend the water in the first and third sections without simply allowing Mario to swim underneath everything. There are too many places where the surface-hopping cheep-cheeps fall off-screen by landing on non-water tiles.
- Due to his infrequent appearance in the hack and no shells to grab, consider scrapping Yoshi altogether as he doesn't add much to the level and is mostly a hindrance in the first underwater section.
- Keep the player from trivializing the underwater sections with fire flowers. I may end up replacing all the power-ups with capes (seriously).
- Consider making the underwater segments less claustrophobic as the urchins in tandem with the blurps cause a lot of waiting around.
- Either replace or rebalance the cheep-cheep generator in the third section of the level to make it more difficult for the player.
- Correct the weird mutilation that happened to this level between when I last edited it and when it was inserted into the ROM.
- Custom graphics, perhaps? I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. The other forest levels might appreciate it, though.

So yeah, that's all for now. You can check out a couple of videos below of this level in action:

My Youtube Demonstration (featuring music by AxemJinx. Thanks again for letting me use it!)
raocow's Playthrough
Originally posted by Mineyl
- Due to his infrequent appearance in the hack and no shells to grab, consider scrapping Yoshi altogether as he doesn't add much to the level and is mostly a hindrance in the first underwater section.

I was actually going to make a list of levels Yoshi could appear in at some point. I'd rather other levels conform to the example you set, not the other way around :b (Don't get me wrong, though- if it works better without Yoshi, then it's something to consider.)

I haven't replayed this level yet, but your changes sound good. I'll let you know if I come up with anything else.

And yes, put the hyphen back in the name.

--------------------
Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Originally posted by AxemJinx
I was actually going to make a list of levels Yoshi could appear in at some point. I'd rather other levels conform to the example you set, not the other way around :b (Don't get me wrong, though- if it works better without Yoshi, then it's something to consider.)

This is a level that I may actually consider rebuilding from the ground up, depending on how motivated I get about it, and I could easily make it more catered to Yoshi if I do that. I've been thinking of a lot of other ways this level could have been made, but no matter what, I have to keep at least one underwater section in the vein of how it was before. It's too unique in the SMW hacking world.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
And yes, put the hyphen back in the name.

Yay! #w{:>}
Besides the Yoshi thing, I remember this level being pretty darn good, and the videos you've posted seem to confirm that. There are a few issues though:

- In the second underwater section, I noticed that there were a lot of useless and unnecessary munchers. Maybe they should be removed and new threatening enemies be added in?

- The only part of the level that seems too easy for World 7 is the first section; that could probably be toned up in difficulty. After that, the level was hard enough, especially section 3 (then again I found most of the hack too difficult from what I remember, I'd probably ask for a general tone down in all the levels.)

- The music in the underwater sections doesn't seem like the best choice. I wonder if something like Aquatic Ambiance would fit better.

Thanks.

- BlackMageMario
Originally posted by BlackMageMario
- In the second underwater section, I noticed that there were a lot of useless and unnecessary munchers. Maybe they should be removed and new threatening enemies be added in?

Because it's a swimming sublevel, the munchers aren't much of a threat on their own. The idea is that the constant pressure from the instantly-awakened Rip Van Fish would force you to consider their placement when trying to dodge the fish, but in hindsight, this section is too easily wrecked by a fire flower and probably needs redone.

Originally posted by BlackMageMario
- The only part of the level that seems too easy for World 7 is the first section; that could probably be toned up in difficulty. After that, the level was hard enough, especially section 3

Hmm... I'll think more on this and see if I can find other Youtube playthroughs to see how other people handle these sections.

Originally posted by BlackMageMario
- The music in the underwater sections doesn't seem like the best choice. I wonder if something like Aquatic Ambiance would fit better.

That may very well work. There was probably some reason I didn't put Aquatic Ambiance in there to begin with, but I agree that the current song is lackluster. :P
I replayed this level today:

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Water-Logged Woods
--Jumping fish behavior is odd in spots because the water isn't continuous. I'd consider making the on-land sections tide levels to address that. As a bonus, that would also discourage swimming under everything because the speed forward would be very slow.
--The cramped, urchin-infested spaces in the first underwater section don't really play well with Yoshi, and the concept of urchins in cramped water levels is already overdone at this point (Flooded Crater, Dark Depths, Dinosaur Reef), so why not just remove that section? Make it a three-part level, with the second underwater section now in the middle. Yoshi works fine in that area, from what I can tell.
--Alternately, at least get rid of the urchin passing under the question blocks at the beginning. Waiting for that is annoying. Also, maybe open things up a bit or replace some urchins with different enemies.
--It might be possible to rebalance the fish generator by designing a couple of bottleneck areas- or even just high platforms- that force you to briefly pass through the flow of the fish. If that fails, I'd just replace it with something else.
--There's a forced mushroom in the second underwater area that will overwrite what you have in the item box. I'd move or remove that.


Also, I'm not sure I'd worry about fire flower breakage. Capes and yoshis make the underwater sections nearly as easy, plus players can just bring their own powerups into the level anyway.

--------------------
Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Originally posted by AxemJinx
--Jumping fish behavior is odd in spots because the water isn't continuous. I'd consider making the on-land sections tide levels to address that. As a bonus, that would also discourage swimming under everything because the speed forward would be very slow.

I was contemplating that. It does mean that I'll have to shorten the on-land sections a bit, but that can be an inconsequential thing if the quality of the level design increases.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
--The cramped, urchin-infested spaces in the first underwater section don't really play well with Yoshi, and the concept of urchins in cramped water levels is already overdone at this point (Flooded Crater, Dark Depths, Dinosaur Reef), so why not just remove that section? Make it a three-part level, with the second underwater section now in the middle. Yoshi works fine in that area, from what I can tell.
--Alternately, at least get rid of the urchin passing under the question blocks at the beginning. Waiting for that is annoying. Also, maybe open things up a bit or replace some urchins with different enemies.

Y'know, when I made this level, I never really thought about just how few dedicated water sprites Super Mario World actually has and wasn't thinking about them being overused due to the other water levels. :P I may have to come up with something unconventional to break the monotony. Also, many of the cramped spaces will definitely be getting the boot. The urchin that passes under the question blocks was actually there to deter people from getting the cape feather, but in hindsight, that was a mean idea.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
--There's a forced mushroom in the second underwater area that will overwrite what you have in the item box. I'd move or remove that.

That's another one of those little bundles of joy that was added after I submitted the level. The original only had four power-ups, all in question blocks. I didn't mind that another power-up was inserted, but because it's in the way, it does exactly as you say with the power-up overwriting.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Also, I'm not sure I'd worry about fire flower breakage. Capes and yoshis make the underwater sections nearly as easy, plus players can just bring their own powerups into the level anyway.

That's true. I'm already thinking of ways to circumvent fire flowers without actually taking them away from the player. I may redesign the underwater section to utilize vertical scrolling.

Thanks for the awesome feedback! I'll be sure to heed all of it. :)
All right, I'm kinda' burnt out on making graphics at the moment, so I'm going to turn my attention to this level. This is all still conceptual, but I'm going to be presenting some level design soon.

Anyways, first of all, I want to keep the whole four-section framework, but I'm going to theme them differently. Here's a very scientific flow chart of how I'm approaching this:

Old
----
Outside -> Underwater -> Midpoint -> Outside -> Underwater -> Goal

New
----
Tidal Outside -> Underwater -> Midpoint -> Tidal Outside OR Non-Tidal Outside -> Vertical Indoor -> Goal

As outlined earlier in the thread, the tide should do a good job of rectifying a lot of the issues the outdoor portions of the original Water-Logged Woods had. I've decided to keep Yoshi in, and I'm going to go to great pains to make this level work well with or without him. This means the level will involve a lot more koopa troopas (previously entirely missing) and quite possibly a lot of nifty little bonuses for managing to keep Yoshi throughout the level instead of ditching him.

The tidal first section should mostly resemble its former self, but obviously more carefully made. The first underwater section will be a better-designed version of the Rip Van Fish portion of the original level. I'm still up in the air on the outdoor area after the midpoint, but if I nix the tide, I may enable vertical scrolling here instead of doing the SMB1 thing. Finally, I want the last segment of the level to be vertically-oriented and taking place within a tree, incorporating a lot more platforming and less-obtrusive water than what is observed in the original game.

I hope this sounds like a good start. Odds are that I'll post an IPS of each section as I get them completed for those interested in helping me iron this thing out.
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Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Old Contests & Events - SMW Central Production 1.5 - Level 128 (World 7) - Water-Logged Woods [Planning]

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