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Should we include Pit hacks in the section?

Kaizo

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Asking around here because people have argued for Pit hacks because we host Kaizo. People have even argued that there should be three tiers of Kaizo difficulty, not just one, so the differences are definitely worth considering.

What I know about Pit hacks: they're the hardest of the hard and most people claim they're unbeatable without tool assistance. I have a lot of questions to pose about them. I would especially like Sokobansolver and Thomas to comment, as well as Katerpie since he was previously in on Kaizo hack moderation.

1) As a player of hard hacks, how important is it that the hack can be beaten with little to no savestate/slowdown/rewind use?

2) How big is the audience for playing Pit hacks? And, as a Kaizo hacker or player, are you interested in/have you played any Pit hacks?

3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?

4) Does having a patch of a hack which is just for show make it a more complete experience than just having the video to watch it with?

5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?




My own answers:

1) An .smv file of a completed level may have been very hard to produce, but in that product you see a coherent completion, and if that is doable then there's a slight chance in hell the level might be beatable without tools if you're both incredibly talented and lucky and went through it enough to know what buttons to press, when, and how hard.

2) I don't know, but I know people like watching them because there is a novelty to "hardest mod ever" no matter what game it is.

3) Pit of Despair by MoltovMarioWorld. I've seen it pop up and had to reject it. Numbers do not lie.

4) Kumikyoku is an unplayable hack with no music and one has to watch the video to really understand what its intentions are but I think having it tangible certainly adds something to the experience and does help preserve it in case for some reason the other circulating links go down.

5) Yes but community interest is more important. In my opinion, if it doesn't break, then it should be held to the same moderation standards as Kaizo hacks, but the .smv file is mandatory to even be considered for moderation.




Also, if you have any other points of conversation or debate for Pit hacks, please bring them up here.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
As a former Kaizo hack moderator, I'll try to answer those questions the best way I can.

1) I'm sure that if a Kaizo hack can be doable with almost no savestates whatsoever, then there shouldn't be the need to have a .smv file since the player can find the intended solution on their own. As in, which buttons they should press to do a determined leap, what reflex should people have before progressing, how hard it is... Things like that. I'm not so sure if there is a hack besides Kaizo Mario World 1 & 2 that can be beaten without savestates and I've seen repeated attempts of people making such hacks but, on the end, have little to no patience to test them as intended.

2) I'm guessing there is (nearly) a big audience (for watching, at least, as they enjoy the stunts people can do but most people that put their hands on them can't even get past a bit that requires heavy slowdown). As for me, such hacks are interesting to watch and I've attempted to play one but couldn't even get past the first part there. Still, if I had enough experience, then they should be amusing to play.

3) Pit of Despair.

4) Not really sure about that. I mean, it certainly helps if there was something else that serves as a base to showcase what creators have put there, and as such, one must be smart enough to understand what are its intentions (not sure if I got this question right), and it sorta adds to the experience.

5) I'd say yes, as long as there is a considerable amount of people that are interested in playing pit hacks. Of course, .smv files should be along with their IPS files as a base for those who play them.
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Are you alive or just breathing?
Originally posted by Counterfeit
3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?

Pit of Death, Pit of Despair, Pit of Shells, Pit of [insert word here], Item Abuse 1 and 2 and World of Pain are the ones I can think of right now.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?

If there's people willing to play them, (and considering this thread exists, there probably is), yes.

I don't think I'm qualified to answer the rest since I'm not into the kaizo/pit area. Regarding moderation though, I remember a few people actually applied for moderating Pit hacks in 2013. I don't know if these people are still active or interested, but if they're not you can always make an application for pit hack moderators. I think having people actually playing the hacks is better than just watching TAS videos, because some hacks can contain breakable points the author may not be aware of.
Originally posted by Counterfeit
2) How big is the audience for playing Pit hacks? And, as a Kaizo hacker or player, are you interested in/have you played any Pit hacks?

I've seen little audience for it myself, it pretty much consists of just a select few bored TASers from what I've seen.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?

Living on the Edge seems like a good one to nominate.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
4) Does having a patch of a hack which is just for show make it a more complete experience than just having the video to watch it with?

Personally I'd say no unless you're some TASer who plans on doing it.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?

That's a tough one. But taking a look at my answers, I'd say there isn't enough interest in them. Personally, I'd say no.

The whole idea in and of itself is that only tool assisted speed runs can beat them. There aren't that many TASers in the SMW hacking community, so like one or two people will play them.


Originally posted by Counterfeit
1) As a player of hard hacks, how important is it that the hack can be beaten with little to no savestate/slowdown/rewind use?

Personally, it doesn't really matter to me; both kinds of hacks have their own appeal and challenge. I agree with the idea of including an SMV on pit hacks to verify and show how the hack is beaten, though, especially since pit hacks tend to use glitches or strategies that most people wouldn't easily figure out. It would certainly make the judging process go a bit faster, as well.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
2) How big is the audience for playing Pit hacks? And, as a Kaizo hacker or player, are you interested in/have you played any Pit hacks?

For viewing Pit hacks, I'd say there's a fairly good audience; hacks like Item Abuse, Pit of Death/Despair, Living on the Edge, . Glitch Abuse, and World of Dickish Moves have all been pretty well-received. Playing, though, is a different story, and I feel like the audience for that would probably be limited to TASers, since most people don't have the patience to play through a lot of these kinds of hacks. That isn't to say there's no audience, of course, and maybe making pit hacks more accessible would help it grow a little, but it would still be smaller than the normal Kaizo hack audience.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?

As mentioned: Item Abuse 1/2, Pit of Death/Despair, LotE, Glitch Abuse 1-3, and WoDM have all been fairly popular ones, and there's probably a few others that I can't remember.
The only question is, how "pit" is pit? For example, would a more puzzle-oriented hack like Super Puzzle World 3 or Super Trick World be pit, since they require obscure glitches and some frame-perfect actions, despite not requiring the heavy tool-assistence associated with pit hacks? And for that matter, would it be up to the judge of the hack to determine this distinction?

Originally posted by Counterfeit
4) Does having a patch of a hack which is just for show make it a more complete experience than just having the video to watch it with?

I agree with the idea that being able to actually have the hack does add something to an experience, even if it's meant mostly for show. While the audience for actually playing the hack may be small, I'm sure there are people interested in the actual design of the hack, as well.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?

I'd say yes, as I see no reason not to. Sure, there may not be many people who download them, but if they're well made and have good thought in them, I feel like they should be as open to the site as any other hack. Plus, as I mentioned, there are people who would be interested in just being able to see the design of the hack, like with the example of Kumikyoku.



As I mentioned, the only extraneous question I have on this topic is that of the distinction between "pit" and "Kaizo". It honestly feels like Kaizo hacks have their own distinction of easy (savestateless or light tool abuse, e.g. original Kaizo), medium (mid to heavier tool use, e.g. the majority of hacks we currently have accepted), and hard (pit hacks), rather than a simple distinction between two categories.
In my opinion, it'd probably would be best settled by a tag system for the specifics of what the hack requires, e.g. "savestateless", "heavy tool usage", or "obscure glitch abuse" tags, since the exact distinction of the difficulty of a hack is better left to the player's personal opinions on what makes it difficult.

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Will tag "tas" and "glitch" to distinguish Kaizo challenges but tagging for savestates seems a little tougher to judge since some may find a need while others don't and outsiders will say "well don't all Kaizos require savestates?" I personally don't have the patience or means of replaying any Kaizo hack already approved so if anyone could conjure an "opinion" list for what's been accepted, I'll gladly revise the tags.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
2) I am interested in playing pit hacks, I just suck at them right now.

3) All of Moltov's pit hacks (And "Puzzle of doom" if that qualifies as pit), the Item Abuse and Glitch abuse seires.

5) I say YES
Pit hacks are too hard for most people to even comprehend, but if they'll be tagged as "Pit", then I guess we might as well.

It'd be cool to add that kind of category to the database.
Go ahead.

Yes.
rest in piece, Tyrone :^(
i honestly think that pretty much all types of hacks should be allowed provided that they are labeled as such so people know what TYPE of hack they are about to play.

i even believe that glitch and joke hacks should be allowed as well as long as they are categorized as such.
I think the term "pit difficulty" is very broad, since there is a range of difficulty among all the pit hacks that have been released.

For example, one of the first pit hacks ever made, Item Abuse, is relatively easy when compared to some of the hacks that have been released more recently. It contains a few walljumps and some tricky glitches; other than that, it's pretty beatable. Really anyone with a lot of time (and frame advance) can beat the hack.

Now compare that to Living on the Edge, a more recent hack that is much more difficult. The first room contains multiple walljumps, downwards key jumping, and block duplication from far away (one of the most precise glitches in the game). Only a handful of people (they're all TASers) can beat this. Every experienced TASer has already heard of this hack anyway, so uploading it to SMWCentral would only open it up to people who will probably never even pass the first screen.

The way that the majority of people enjoy these insane hacks is by watching people play them. If there was an smv to allow people to watch it, it would allow visitors to SMWCentral to actually enjoy the hack. Simply uploading the patch of these more insane pit hacks would be pointless, since most TASers have already played them themselves. I think the patch, the smv, and a TAS should all be provided when submitting a pit hack.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
2) How big is the audience for playing Pit hacks? And, as a Kaizo hacker or player, are you interested in/have you played any Pit hacks?


I personally have played lots of pit hacks, but I feel that most people don't really play them. Most people who regularly play pit hacks are also TASers, and TASers definitely aren't a majority on this site. People just don't really play pit hacks that often.
However, I think that the number of people who watch pit hacks is huge. A good pit hack can be extremely entertaining. As I said already, an smv would really help with this.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?


Along with the others mentioned, I'd add ColonThree,Walljump Abuse, and Pit of Insaneness.

Originally posted by Counterfeit
5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?


Yes, but the more difficult hacks should have an smv.
1) As a player of hard hacks, how important is it that the hack can be beaten with little to no savestate/slowdown/rewind use?

not very; I downloaded "Mario Must Die" today, and the only regret I have for using slowdowns occasionally is the music :P. I have no problem on using savestates in kaizo.

2) How big is the audience for playing Pit hacks? And, as a Kaizo hacker or player, are you interested in/have you played any Pit hacks?

Never played a pit hack, they're beyond my skillset.

3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?

not particularly.

4) Does having a patch of a hack which is just for show make it a more complete experience than just having the video to watch it with?

Yes, it does. watching C|C and actually doing it gave completely different feelings; amaze at the person making the vid vs. the feeling you get when you just did something insane and won.

5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?

Yes, since while few will play them (and fewer will win), the ones that do will be happy. just mark them as such, and maybe require a movie or video for the hack mods so they won't spend a week trying to do it.
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Originally posted by Counterfeit
2) How big is the audience for playing Pit hacks? And, as a Kaizo hacker or player, are you interested in/have you played any Pit hacks?

3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?

5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?


Considering the fact that this thread was made, I would say reasonably fair audience. As a Kaizo hacker/player, I am interested and have played pit hacks. Sure, the difficulty is insanely hard, but I consider pit hacks as practice on skills because I want to get some new ideas, and maybe doing a TAS sometime.

Pit of Keys, Pit of Despair, Pit of Death, Item Abuse series, ColonThree. (Maybe add a tag saying Pit for pit difficulty)

I'm all in for Pit hacks to be admitted. (YES)
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If the hack comes with a movie, then YES
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Not going to lie, I know jackshit about pit hacks. What are they?

EDIT: I've just looked it up. Aren't they basicly the same as Kaizos?
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Kaizo hacks with walljumps and even more obscene glitches.
Originally posted by JFCODY
Not going to lie, I know jacksh*t about pit hacks. What are they?

EDIT: I've just looked it up. Aren't they basicly the same as Kaizos?


Well, it's hardcore on difficulty, it should have a genre of difficulty on its own. Kaizo on steroids, more like.
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Sokobansolver stated once that it's the black metal of SMW-hacks.

Anyway, I've yet to play a Kaizo or a Pit hack, but I say yes due to the growing intrest I seem to be noticing in Pit hacks.
My layout has removed you.
Originally posted by JFCODY
Not going to lie, I know jackshit about pit hacks. What are they?

EDIT: I've just looked it up. Aren't they basicly the same as Kaizos?


In my opinion, the difference between a kaizo hack and a pit hack is the slight possibility to beat it tool-less. For example, with a kaizo hack, if you get extremely lucky and manage to press all the right buttons, you can beat the hack (theoretically). With a pit hack, this is impossible.

A pit hack has tricks that require reflexes not humanly possible. Slowdown (and frame advance) is essentially required. You can't even type on the keyboard fast enough to do the tricks in many pit hacks.
Another difference is that kaizo hacks have "breaks" in between the madness, while a pit hack should have no "breaks". A pit hack is a nonstop sequence of extremely precise maneuvers. Kaizo hacks sometimes give you free items or a midway point, while a pit hack should obviously have none of these.
I've always thought of a pit hack as when the player needs a complete mastery of frame precise tricks and having to perform those all the time, and anything goes in terms of pixel/frame perfect maneuvers. Kaizo might require some basic forms of frame perfect glitches but not all the time.
I think a difference is that Kaizo is actually meant to be 'played', while pit hacks mostly or only appeal to TASers.
Hacks like Abuse and Die 1 and 2 kinda blur the line IMO. It looks mostly hard Kaizo but I've seen a few wall catches, advanced mushroom juggling acrobatics, and the Yoshi on the ceiling glitch.
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I'm a TAS'er that enjoys watching ang making tool-assisted speedruns of SMW hacks, specially pit hacks!

1) As a player of hard hacks, how important is it that the hack can be beaten with little to no savestate/slowdown/rewind use?
For me, if it requires savestates and etc, it's good. I prefer to play (with tools) a pit hack than a Kaizo hack.

2) How big is the audience for playing Pit hacks? And, as a Kaizo hacker or player, are you interested in/have you played any Pit hacks?
The audience for playing used to be much bigger. Most players have quit in the last 12 months, for some reason. Pit hacks don't attract many players, because TAS'es in general are hard to make and one can spend months to complete a single game. But many people watch the videos and that's what matters.

3) Is there any Pit hack of historical significance in SMW hacking that you feel should be archived on SMW Central to avoid it being lost in obscurity?
Item Abuse series, Glitch Abuse series, Living on the Edge, Colon Three and Pit of Insaneness.

4) Does having a patch of a hack which is just for show make it a more complete experience than just having the video to watch it with?
In general, yes. But some hacks are puzzles, so the video would be a spoiler. After someone discovers the secret, a smv (or lsmv for lsnes, bk2 for BizHawk) would be greatly appreciated.

5) All things considered, in black-and-white: Yes or no to Pit hacks in the SMW Hacks section?
Yes!

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