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SPC contents stealing?

SPCs are the main method of listening and sharing SNES (and SMW custom) music today. They're small, easy to share, light to use, with wide stuff and specially, rippable. SPC files are actually, let's say, a save state of a game, except they have only the relevant data for playing music.

As well with regular save states you can rip graphics or even effects, with SPCs files you can extract its samples, its echo settings and its music itself. Currently there's two forms: either you extract the internal data, how like NintSPC does and you can, of course, track the output audio, or better, the DSP processor status and flags.

While it would be a great advance to you be able to literally extract the music from any game on most cases, at same time you can pick a random SPC from a porter and using certain tools and methods you can get the music data in most cases with >90% precision. Even that depending on how old the port, you can even rip the port using NintSPC directly on it. I also have tools for years made for disassembling AddmusicK/AddmusicM/Addmusic405/etc SPCs. I made it so anyone would lost their .txt or need to fix a hack, he/she can ask me and I restore all songs using VilelaBot.

And yeah, but this time I'm been working for years on a weird project about tracking the DSP changes from a SPC and outputting the results to a MML file. While the most results were just full note garbage, recently it's been advancing that now it can produce interesting results.

What would you guys react to something like this? In fact, since this is ROM hacking, we're supposedly to have every resource free, but that's your work, your effort, which can be literally cloned with a few clicks and adjusts.

Would it be a major problem? Like, if some kind of tool would ever appear, would be better just trash it forever (+ burning the idiot that made it) and don't let anyone use it, even for good purposes? Or would anyone ever care about it at this rate? Would someone start sticking to like .mp3 files to avoid possible stealing? Or what about restricting the access of it to only trustworthy people? Are they really trusty? And what about locking/protecting SPC files? Is that even a possible thing?

So, what are your opinion about this? This will be pretty important to decide if I should continue with this, which will literally allow you to convert/export 99% of SPCs files into insert-able ports and MMLs and would change pretty much SMW Hacking in terms of music, but at same time it would transform SMW porting into communism, unless if something can be done to protect the work.
I saw such problem in a bunch of paiding/unpubliced Wordpress themes.
We may copy a wabsite's theme in few minutes with some tools like Httrack, and slapping template code into the stolen HTML, then, you stoled a Wordpress theme successfully.
We should see the advantages instead of disadvantage, because every people should have their integrity.
For the few people who don't have integrity and using unlicensed materials like custom music, that's SMWC Staff's work, I think.
Formerly known as tcdw (2011-2021)
PortsAMK SPC DisassemblerC3 Winter 2022 Stuff
I have mixed feelings about this.

First, I must say that it would be pretty cool to have a tool that lets you rip an SPC music in a pretty accurate way. Thinking that a program could do that for you would be a revolution for those users who can't port and want an SPC music that isn't in the section.

On the other side, though, this would kill around 60% of porters' activity. SPC music is what is most ported when it comes to sampled stuff, especially among newbies, and having a tool that does that for you... yeah, I'd feel like half of the things I could do port-wise just flew away. Not that I'm a big fan of porting SPC music in general, but think about those porters who do it pretty frequently. This will either demotivate them to learn more about porting or, instead, motivate them to port musics which aren't SPC, which would be a pretty cool alternative.

I didn't touch the stealing topic yet, and you saw my reactions on IRC already: I speak as a porter, I'm pretty jealous of my works in general, in particular when it's about those ports that take a bit more time to do (something like a week of work) and that I don't want to share in the section for personal reasons. I do know that you can use NintSPC anyway, but iirc it's an hard enough method. Now, to think that, with this tool, anyone could easily steal a port I did and that took time, I'd be pissed off. Imagine I put all my efforts on a track that I want to use in my own hack and that makes it pretty unique, and then I realise someone else is using the same my track too and I didn't knew. For how jealous I am in general, I don't want to think of what would happen if that happens. (By same track, of couse, I mean my version of that port; if it's from another author, it's perfectly fine to me).

The only good idea I have in mind that could make use of this tool is, first, to make it restrict to staff people only: in this way we could remove the stealing problem. Something I was thinking since a bit is about creating a sort of "requests section" where normal users could request an SPC to be ported; then the staff member, after making sure that's a 100% SPC port and not a product from a porter, will convert it with the tool and send it to the user who requested it. Of course, the converted ports could be archieved in the music section for public use.

These are my thoughts about this. Of course opinions could vary, but I spoke as a porter, so I guess it can't be helped.
There is no copyright on ports. I get that you like the stuff that you've made, but they're not impenetrable to disassembly.

One measure we could take is to create some sort of tool that locks SPCs. This way people who are truly discomforted by the thought that someone might rip their work prematurely won't have that happen to them. I don't know how you'd go about this, Vitor. But I assume it could just be similar to the way Lunar Magic locks hacks.

I have no issue with this. The SPC-SPC porting scene is almost dead anyway, so making it an easier task is only a relief of workload. I think that publishing such a tool to the public is a good idea.
Publishing such a tool will always have pros and cons. Look at Edit's background ripper. As a graphics artist, my work has always been prone to be stolen; and trust me, it's definitely been stolen at points. In the end, it's up to users to decide whether or not they want to be a bad person and steal somebody elses work.

Personally, it's not that big an issue: Not a lot of people are capable to finishing a hack. This in and of itself makes the issue of stealing something not too high. Demos just... don't matter too much. Yes, they show what you're capable and they're relevant; are they remembered? Yes, if they're good enough. I'm rambling.

This tool has it's pros and cons. For someone like me, there's a ton of pros more than cons. Most of what I want to use are SPC's; and locking SPC's isn't very useful unless you can keep your hack from dumping SPC's in the first place. A lot of the music I want to use are SPC's, so such a tool would do wonders for me.

As far a cons go, there are some privatised SPC's I'd like keep my hands on only, some of them I worked very hard for, and with such a tool, anybody can take it. What do I say to that: hate the user, not the tool.

It's like a gun, it's the person behind it that can be evil, not the gun/tool itself. Releasing this tool will help out a lot of people; but at the same time, thieves will take advantage. Powerful tools can be a double edged sword.

If anybody is truly skeptic, here's the rundown. Graphics are already stealable, code is stealable; music has been stealable for a long time. (Trust me, I know an exploit) Making such a task easier isn't going to change a thief, Vivi; but it'll do a lot of good for those who want to use a certain song. The best way to keep things from being stolen (easily) is to keep the tool under command of the staff if that's what one would want and they'll output the file for users. Most stuff people want anyway are MP3s at this point.

Besides, I've seen what's outputted by that thing, the files are huge! If they do use it, they're not going to be able to use a lot. Har har har. Call it a... double edged sword.



Too Long; Didn't Read: We should embrace it, it's no different from stealing graphics and code, which people work just as hard on as those who port. It's up to staff to find out who steal, and when we do, they can expect some harsh repercussions. (even if it costs me my position)
As Torchkas said: "There is no copyright on ports. I get that you like the stuff that you've made, but they're not impenetrable to disassembly."

With that, I am going to say this: You will always have someone who would abuse the tools given to them for their own personal gain, and you cannot really stop the activity, only discourage, and those should be punished for violating others' integrity. Restricting the tool to a chosen few...what I see is basically that of what DRM does: Preventing you from doing what would be possible without it just because someone dictates what you can do with your product.

However, I see the pros to be outweighing the cons. I see this tool to be useful for obtaining lost ports a hacker has created who may want to touch up on his port. I also see it to be beneficial as a tool to preserve old ports that were previously available to the public and that it can make the workload of fixing broken hacks that are still in the hacks section slightly easier.

It is why I would like to see this tool released...
On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that.
-I also do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me.
-I am more receptive to equivalent exchange of resources in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details.
-Other times I'm availible for your project is C3 request threads I may run.




I'd say you should keep working on it, but make it restricted to certain people, like your disassembly IRC commands so not everyone could steal stuff in half a second, and if they need an SPC from an actual SNES game ported, they can ask someone that can use it to convert it for them.

On the topic of stealing ports, well, it isn't like you own anything you port, like Torchkas said, since it's still a melody created by another musician, but for compositions made specifically for a hack it would become a problem, not that many people do that nowadays, but it definitely happens. Also, while SPCs aren't theft free right now, very few people can do it, and with this available for everyone that will change, so it's not something you can really use as an argument.

Unrelated to the actual topic but related to what you're working now: How would it handle stuff that AMK doesn't support? Like Square's auto pan fade command (for the lack of a better name), or engines like the one used in Plok where they constantly change direct GAIN for the envelopes?
Originally posted by Torchkas
There is no copyright on ports. I get that you like the stuff that you've made, but they're not impenetrable to disassembly.

One measure we could take is to create some sort of tool that locks SPCs. This way people who are truly discomforted by the thought that someone might rip their work prematurely won't have that happen to them. I don't know how you'd go about this, Vitor. But I assume it could just be similar to the way Lunar Magic locks hacks.

I have no issue with this. The SPC-SPC porting scene is almost dead anyway, so making it an easier task is only a relief of workload. I think that publishing such a tool to the public is a good idea.

i agree with this post in its entirety
soundcloud / bandcamp / twitter / buy/stream my EP / buy my touhou music
I like the idea of an SPC ripping tool, and I wouldn't want the worries about porter's work getting in the way of that. Ripping from any SNES game you can think of at the drop of a hat would far outweigh the worries caused by any 'stolen' content.

Besides, if the port's based on music from another game, is it really stealing? It doesn't matter if you ported a song from Final Fantasy or Donkey Kong Country, it's not your work to begin with and shouldn't be treated like it is.

Any stolen original compositions can be dealt with like stolen custom graphics; the hack using them simply rejected.
For gaming news and Wario discussions, check out Gaming Reinvented and Wario Forums respectively.

As for Mario's Nightmare Quest? Well, it's currently on Fusion Gameworks, ROM Hacking.net or the GCN at the moment.
Just to note that, the tool is still not a solid thing and I don't even know if it will get good enough to be released. It's barely half finished yet. I'm saying this because some people are even already requesting to I convert some SPCs, which of course won't give good results at all right now.

What I'm more worried is just because of the stealing question, hence why this thread. Probably I will make some anti-AMK/AMM/AM4 filter, but they won't be perfect and they can be removed by a good enough programmer though editing source code.
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Fanatical like a Demon
Originally posted by Vitor Vilela
What I'm more worried is just because of the stealing question, hence why this thread. Probably I will make some anti-AMK/AMM/AM4 filter, but they won't be perfect and they can be removed by a good enough programmer though editing source code.

Jx keep it only limited to staff, or if the general public feels the needs to truly have it and will gripe about it, then give them the amk/amm/am4 filler one to prevent "stealing", and should they want to revive a song they lost, they can ask said staff to rip the song if they still have their SPC. This tool is kinda rather a sad thing for me since all my future Soundtracks are now p much taken out for porting since this tool can do it in seconds. Reminds me like in Jurassic Park when Spielberg told the stop motion crew that they were going CGI for the movie instead. "Looks like we're out of the job", "Don't you mean extinct?" Anyways, not really a big deal since stopped porting atm.
Major thanks to Suika Ibuki for layout!
SMAS Soundtrack Status: 100% finished
YI Soundtrack Status: 100%
YI Unsampled Soundtrack Status: 100%
NSMB Soundtrack Status: 7.89%
Killer Instinct Soundtrack Status: 14.63%
SPC Thread
From our family to you, keep your pants dry, your dreams wet, and remember, hugs not drugs.
No, no, no.

Definitely I won't keep this for staff only. I will either release or not release it.

And the tool will never release better results than manual porting. Due of natural timing issues, the note length will most time get odd and irregular (a sequence of c8s can suddenly have a c=23 and c=25) and the tempo is always inaccurate compared to the original. And I don't even need to comment about the loop capabilities. It can do the most stuff itself, but it will require manual intervention if you ever want something that truly works well.

Still, the tool will get much better results than SPC2MIDI. If I knew MIDI format actually I could even set up it to output MIDI files, but I don't really know MIDI format nor I know a good MIDI library for C#.
GitHub - Twitter - YouTube - SnesLab Discord
Fanatical like a Demon
Originally posted by Vitor Vilela
Still, the tool will get much better results than SPC2MIDI. If I knew MIDI format actually I could even set up it to output MIDI files, but I don't really know MIDI format nor I know a good MIDI library for C#.

That would be AWESOME!!! You have no idea how much of a help that would be, especially on SPCs that use the Ocean engine (and others that loveemu hasn't created an MIDI converter for). The main thing I'd like help with is volume and panning values since doing those by trial and error is a pain. But other than that, I think I'm looking forward to this tool now if it can make porting a little easier with things of that nature.
Major thanks to Suika Ibuki for layout!
SMAS Soundtrack Status: 100% finished
YI Soundtrack Status: 100%
YI Unsampled Soundtrack Status: 100%
NSMB Soundtrack Status: 7.89%
Killer Instinct Soundtrack Status: 14.63%
SPC Thread
From our family to you, keep your pants dry, your dreams wet, and remember, hugs not drugs.
I've always found it incredibly silly that a community revolving around modifying other people's work is against modifying other people's work.

It's easy to enforce attribution, for those concerned about that. A ripped SPC with the author name changed will be incredibly obvious.


Anyway, these days, by far the most common reason I see someone wanting to rip music out of hacks is to fix compatibility issues. It would be counterproductive to not make it easier for people to actually fix them. I dunno how effective the tool is/will be for the really old addmusics, but if it works on those, then many people will be shouting hallelujah.
I think it should be fine. It should make porting from SNES games a lot quicker (of course, if it's any other console, we're out of luck), and if anyone tries to submit a port of composition that somebody else did without permission, it won't get accepted anyway.

----------------

I'm working on a hack! Check it out here.



Think of it this way though, this goes both ways. If you suspect somebody is using your shit in a hack without credit, you could just rip it and compare the results and you'd have solid evidence. As long as the mods are willing to take down hacks with stolen content it should be alright. And yeah if it's as imperfect as you say it should be fine too.

Also staff only tools are a really dumb idea.

I've never looked at not crediting someone as stealing their work, if that work is openly available. Do our mods really enforce that?
No but if it's Japanese and you use/link it you're automatically worse than Hitler.

That's also a problem, since people can grab any random Japanese hack that uses custom music us western hackers don't have access to and yoink it from an SPC which mods hate.
My immediate mentality is "Why would I want to steal a port, when I can make a port or compose a piece which better fits the tone I'm going for 99% of the time anyway?"

But I am wrong, since that is only a mentality for porters/composers, to which I am sure many are not.
To make it clear, I would be perfectly fine with it if someone stole the data from an SPC I put up, assuming I had put up no txt for it. But I understand that not everyone is of my mindset, and some people have a more personal connection to their ports.

But, it seems like a tool that will do a net positive for the community. Especially since it will allow newbies to port SPC songs earlier in their learning process and figure out how to clean those up before necessarily having to transpose from scratch. We already have PetiteMM which is pretty good about it, but this could do way better and make an easier learning curve for aspiring porters.
I've become very grumpy these last few years, and have been biting my tongue here in SMWC's forums quite a bit. I just want to let you all know that if ever I come off as harsh, I still care about you all. You guys are great.

(Avatar by http://reyleias.tumblr.com/, butchered by me)



Originally posted by Torchkas
I've never looked at not crediting someone as stealing their work, if that work is openly available. Do our mods really enforce that?

err without credit wasn't really the right word. Without permission, even if it is credited, if the song isn't actually released. Basically using this tool to steal music from other hacks. For the people who don't release all of their stuff publicly.