Language…
9 users online: El Cuh Fermin,  GlitchCat7, Impetus,  Lazy, PixlBitNick, Random Internet Name, RZRider, TheJank, Tiozinho - Guests: 69 - Bots: 165
Users: 55,590 (2,468 active)
Latest user: StrangeEric

Is using the Ultimate N00b boss very repetitive in hacks (or not)?

However, using the Ultimate N00b boss from Iceguy feels okay, but feel that the using that boss a lot of times in hack(s), is considerate (for me) the most repetitive thing ever. Am i correct?

Looks like that nobody knows to make custom bosses. Or making the boss is hard or it take a lot of time. What do you think about this?
I dislike noob bosses, I find them quite boring now since I've beaten them many times. Some people have clever ideas with them, but most feel quite repetitive.

About the making custom bosses thing, I think some people just don't want to learn ASM, some people try, but fail since they lack experience, (see me for example) and some of the people that try ASM but fail just give up and use something else. I think that's why those custom bosses in the sprites section are so popular.
I don't want to come across as ASM elitist and I certainly don't want to discourage learning new things, but if you can't get your hands on a good boss you shouldn't have a boss. If you can make one, fine. If you can get someone to make it for you (good luck with that), fine. But honestly, most (all?) bosses you can get from the site are pretty shite. If you make great levels and then stick poor custom bosses at the end of each world, it's just going to take away from the overall quality of the hack. It's better to not use bosses at all than it is to use bad ones.

allow shy guy emojis in post footers you cowards!
Originally posted by Von Fahrenheit
But honestly, most (all?) bosses you can get from the site are pretty shite.
Care to explain why they are bad? Just asking so I won't do the same mistake if I ever make a boss.
Originally posted by S.R.H.
Originally posted by Von Fahrenheit
But honestly, most (all?) bosses you can get from the site are pretty shite.
Care to explain why they are bad? Just asking so I won't do the same mistake if I ever make a boss.

Mostly it comes down to the bosses needing to be too generic for the general populace to get use from them. Compare my Kirby boss to the bosses I made for SMWCP2. The Kirby boss is pretty boring, while the wheel and Norveg are pretty rad, but good luck fitting either of those two bosses into a game that isn't SMWCP2. A good boss should be created to fit with the game, and for the most part, that's just not possible to handle generically. So instead you get these little bosses that have a few pre determined attacks and simple mechanics so they can fit anywhere, and they end up kind of boring.
Originally posted by S.R.H.
Originally posted by Von Fahrenheit
But honestly, most (all?) bosses you can get from the site are pretty shite.
Care to explain why they are bad? Just asking so I won't do the same mistake if I ever make a boss.


I suppose this is as good a time as any to dump some of my boss design philosophy. At its core a boss fight should be a highlight of the player experience; otherwise there is no point to there being a boss in the first place. A boss should also be more of a challenge than the levels leading up to it, but not unreasonably hard. Usually this means that you should not introduce a lot of new mechanics during a boss fight as new elements are best introduced in a comfortable environment. As I said, bosses should stand out. To stand out, bosses need to be unique. I suppose that's a big problem with grabbing them from SMWC: They are used in a lot of hacks and a lot of them are fought the same way (by throwing things at them). It really makes most custom bosses from here more tedious than exciting, which is terrible for the overall experience.

Another thing making many bosses bad is that so many of them are designed the same way: dodge attacks, get projectile, throw projectile, repeat. It's terrible design that makes bosses come across as incredibly dumb for constantly using the one attack that makes them die (the DKC games are very guilty of this). Some other bosses you just jump on three times and you're done, which is just lame (this includes many official Mario bosses, but certainly not all).

So how does one actually make a good boss? The first thing you have to do is decide what kind of boss fight you want it to be. I like to generalize and put fights in one (or more) of four different groups based on the boss' aggressiveness: Overwhelming, aggressive, defensive, and retreating. Overwhelming bosses are ones you can't beat and you have to escape from; aggressive boss fights are the where you have to play defensive and wait for an opening (ideally not one the boss would deliberately give you); defensive bosses are ones where you have to be the aggressor and the boss mostly reacts to the player; retreating bosses are trying to escape. These groups are dynamic and many good bosses switch between them mid-fight. A great example of a boss that changes from one to another is King Zing from DKC2. On the level before the boss he is chasing you and you have to escape because you can't defeat him (which also serves as a killer introduction). When you enter the boss room he is passive and does nothing until you attack him, which makes him aggressive for a while; then he goes back to being passive again. After he gets low on life he goes aggressive until the fight is over. King Zing is a very dynamic boss and that really makes him stand out, especially in a game with pretty mediocre fights. The tempo dynamic of the fight is very important. An overwhelming boss can make the player feel helpless, while a defensive boss might make the player feel really powerful. Consider where in the game the boss is encountered.

The boss needs to fit thematically. You might want to think up some minimal lore, even if it's never presented to the player. It makes it easier to give the boss a design that doesn't feel out of place. Some dialogue is great for giving bosses some characterization if you want to. The background music is also incredibly useful for conveying a certain atmosphere. The tempo of the music should also fit the overall tempo of the fight. Is your boss really slow? Then don't use a fast and super-intense song.

The last thing I want to talk about is boss AI and combat mechanics. This is usually what takes the by far most time. The boss needs to behave realistically (relatively speaking) which above all means that the boss should react to the player. This is important for making the fight involving. The player will always react to the boss, so that's not really an issue, but the boss should be influenced by what the player is doing as well. This is more important the more defensive the boss is, but is still very much relevant for aggressive bosses. Does your boss shoot a projectile? Make it aim for the player. A very common mistake in combat mechanics is not letting the player hurt the boss unless it performs a specific attack. If the boss could theoretically make itself impervious by using only safe attacks your design is flawed. If the boss can't be hurt at any time it shouldn't expose itself to danger unless it's also the only way to hurt the player.

Wow... that was pretty long. I hope my message came across well enough.

allow shy guy emojis in post footers you cowards!
For me, in the end, it comes down to "I want a boss in this level". No other bosses exist in the custom sprites section I'd like for it, so I use noob boss. Since SMWhacking is merely a hobby for me, I'd rather not put eight hours of my day into something super trivial.

Repetitive or not, if you play a lot of hacks, you're eventually going to come to the term every boss is overused. I'm starting to think the hacking scene is becoming more an elitist scene than just something to come to and work off some stress, but this is just my opinion on the matter. I personally like fighting noob bosses as long as they are done right. So that also comes off as a bit of preference one might say.
Your layout has been removed.
Coding bosses isn't even hard. You just have to be willing to commit to it.

Also I really don't even play hacks these days so the last time I experienced the noob boss was probably like 2012.
Originally posted by MolSno
Coding bosses isn't even hard. You just have to be willing to commit to it.

Assuming you know ASM, how to code a sprite, how graphics routines work, and how to code any of the moves you plan on giving your boss, and you have a large arsenal of ideas at your disposal. All of this depends on an ability to code, so if you don't have a natural instinct to be able to enter the necessary mindset, you're screwed from the outset.

@n00b boss: it's a cop out IMO. You either have a boss that's decent, a boss that sucks, or no boss at all. I'd honestly prefer a kill room over a Thwomp boss or a n00b boss, as both are pretty mediocre from the outset.
Originally posted by MolSno
Coding bosses isn't even hard. You just have to be willing to commit to it.


That's what hard usually means though. Once you know ASM you can do anything with it; we say some things are harder than others because they require more research and effort and take longer to learn how to do. Making a good boss takes a lot more effort than many other ASM-base tasks so it makes sense to say it's harder. It might be easy for someone who is very experienced, but then it's still hard by comparison.

allow shy guy emojis in post footers you cowards!
I would say not necessarily.

But you have to use it right. Basically, don't either:

1. Do what I did in one of previous ROM hacks (levelengine knows the one) and have bosses that are more 'cheap' than truly difficult or interesting.

2. Make it pretty much do nothing at all. Bosses like that are 99.99% likely to suck, whether they use the n00b boss, newbie boss or custom programming.

If you need more detailed advice for it:

1. Do not EVER use homing projectiles with this thing. It does not limit the rate in which sprites are spawned, so anything that homes in Mario will end up becoming a nigh undodgeable zerg rush.

Oh forget it. Basically, if you make ANY boss, do not have it fire a barrage of homing projectiles. Especially not the homing Bullet Bills.


2. Don't use misleading hitboxes. It's 32 x 32 pixels. make sure the obvious target is 32 x 32 pixels.

3. Avoid the light flashing gimmick, because it's an absolutely godawful idea in general.

There's theoretically nothing wrong with using the sprite if its used well, it's just pretty much never used well.
For gaming news and Wario discussions, check out Gaming Reinvented and Wario Forums respectively.

As for Mario's Nightmare Quest? Well, it's currently on Fusion Gameworks, ROM Hacking.net or the GCN at the moment.
Originally posted by Von Fahrenheit
WORDS

This was legit an awesome post, 10/10

I'm actually planning on trying to practice ASM hacking during the summer
If I ever get around to making a boss I'll try to keep this in mind

I'm in the Computing professional course at school (high school is a bit weird in Portugal), which includes programming, so this shouldn't be too bad of a small timewaster

Plus, I kinda plan on studying Game Design in the future

Originally posted by cheat-master30
Basically, don't either:

1. Do what I did in one of previous ROM hacks (levelengine knows the one) and have bosses that are more 'cheap' than truly difficult or interesting.

I really want to play Mario End Game just to see how bad it is

Yours and levelengine's testimonies are not enough
HackPortsASM"Uploader"

Sometime soon I'm going to become a broken record...

Anyways, I think it's repetitive when hackers don't experiment with it and instead make the same old running around throwing hammers or bones. U.Noob boss may be limiting but you can do some pretty cool stuff with it if you branch out just a little. With that being said I can understand why others find it repetitive...hell even I do but it's as close as some of us who are unexperienced in the field of coding bosses is going to get to making a boss and unless more new bosses are released or bosses with more customized options or....a new Ultimate Noob boss is released....this is probably not going to change any time soon...

Then again maybe we shouldn't always think a boss is needed at the end of fortresses.
My Youtube Channel for Hacking and Gaming.
Originally posted by EvilGuy0613
Then again maybe we shouldn't always think a boss is needed at the end of fortresses.

The subject matter of this very topic is how I came up with the idea of Luigi's Challenge. Races (like Boo in Super Mario Deluxe) instead of actual bosses, and "kill rooms" were in the Combo Breaker demo.
Legacy custom music
A site where you can be able to hit that dislike where your dislike will be visible to other people and not have to rely on a browser extension as well as actually watch my SMW hacking content

Originally posted by Von Fahrenheit
Boss design philosophy.
Interesting, thank you.
Also I agree with everything EvilGuy0613 said.
I just re-skin most of the bosses on this site so that it makes you go... "What boss is that" which is a little better than going
"oh look its mouser again"
What I don't like about N00b bosses is that death sequences are pretty much nonexistant. The moment the boss turns into smoke or starts to fall off screen, the score tally or transition to the next screen immediately comes up, giving the boss no time to leave the screen or have its smoke dissipate. Note how the official SMW bosses have the screen linger on for a bit when you defeat them before moving on to scores and such.
Your layout has been removed.
I don't mind using the Ultimate Noob Bosses as long as they aren't:

- Too long and repetitive.
- Annoying or ridiculously hard.
- "Projectile spammers".
- Using the same gimmicks dozens of times.

Cool bosses can be done as well with this thing. Why does a fortress need a boss? What about a puzzle or something? There are many ways to give the player a fair challenge, bosses aren't the only option.
yes
stop using it, else just don't have bosses please. keep my sanity of not trying to ruin a good hack at the first world.