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[DEAD] 4-5 - Kamek's Cold Quarry
Forum Index - Events - Collaboration Projects - SMWC Island - [DEAD] 4-5 - Kamek's Cold Quarry
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...I think I picked a bad name, considering my "naming gimmick" here...

Here, have a demo. It goes up to the midpoint and a screen or two afterwards. Should have 10 Red Coins and 3 Flowers by the end. I'm fairly certain the difficulty's all wacky and that one of the red coins is going to be stupidly difficult to get, but we'll see what you the public think.




<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!
So I've played through the level and yes you are correct, the difficulty is wacky and unfair at times. Here are my main concerns.

1. The difficulty. It was fine in the 1st half before the climbing section. After that, it was had a lot of off-screen surprises when climbing. Notably by the yellow baseball boy and the fireball guy.

After that, the icy section with a lot of spikes was kinda cramped. I think you should either heighten the ceiling, decrease the amount of spikes, or remove 1-2 fireball guys. Even with patience there's not a lot of room to move and Kamek there is just icing on the cake.

2. Right after the climbing section is a part where you need to jump on the green baseball boy to get higher. There are 3 red coins there. When passing by though, sometimes the screen won't show that brown platform up there unless they jump or loop up, so some people might miss it if they run past fast. Maybe have a better indication that is there.

3. So that red coin egg thrown by the baseball guy is fine, except he can start throwing it too early for the player to notice it's a red coin egg. Either have the egg start farther away from the baseball guy or just do something else with it.

Also I was not able to find where the 3rd flower is. I have found the one above the 2 flippers and I got the one near the midpoint.

Overall, tone down the unfair parts at the start of the climbing section till the midpoint and that bit should be fine. Having enough room to dodge Kamek is essential to making it not frustrating I think.

EDIT: Oh and also you could add some more safe spots for some breathing room. I noticed not enough in the 1st area with Kamek. It's nice to get a handle on timing where Kamek is and stuff if I wasn't constantly dealing with enemies along the path.
Originally posted by cramps-man
So I've played through the level and yes you are correct, the difficulty is wacky and unfair at times. Here are my main concerns.

1. The difficulty. It was fine in the 1st half before the climbing section. After that, it was had a lot of off-screen surprises when climbing. Notably by the yellow baseball boy and the fireball guy.

After that, the icy section with a lot of spikes was kinda cramped. I think you should either heighten the ceiling, decrease the amount of spikes, or remove 1-2 fireball guys. Even with patience there's not a lot of room to move and Kamek there is just icing on the cake.

2. Right after the climbing section is a part where you need to jump on the green baseball boy to get higher. There are 3 red coins there. When passing by though, sometimes the screen won't show that brown platform up there unless they jump or loop up, so some people might miss it if they run past fast. Maybe have a better indication that is there.

3. So that red coin egg thrown by the baseball guy is fine, except he can start throwing it too early for the player to notice it's a red coin egg. Either have the egg start farther away from the baseball guy or just do something else with it.

Also I was not able to find where the 3rd flower is. I have found the one above the 2 flippers and I got the one near the midpoint.

Overall, tone down the unfair parts at the start of the climbing section till the midpoint and that bit should be fine. Having enough room to dodge Kamek is essential to making it not frustrating I think.

EDIT: Oh and also you could add some more safe spots for some breathing room. I noticed not enough in the 1st area with Kamek. It's nice to get a handle on timing where Kamek is and stuff if I wasn't constantly dealing with enemies along the path.

GAH! Completely forgot about safespots. I feel stupid now, especially after how a few weeks ago, I was just discussing the concept of having "breather areas" with no combat with some friends... whoops. I'll make sure to fix that promptly. So, your other complaints...

1: So, for the vertical climb, remove the Slugger? Yeah, I get ya... I was meaning to remove him, but I wanted to push a demo out so I forgot to. Will remove him. Any other changes I should make with that area? Any other parts I should rebalance?
The icicle corridor... Yeah, I'd kinda like to leave it SOMEWHAT cramped, so dodging Kamek can be more dangerous, but I guess right now it's TOO cramped... I'll raise the ceiling, then.

2: Yeah, I could add some coins for the first Green Glove to show you can get up there. Though, the intended solution isn't to JUMP on it, but to throw an egg at it and bouce off that to get up there. :P

3: Flashing Egg, I don't know why I didn't move it because I had thought about that exact issue and was meaning to move it! Kind of a running "theme" with me, forgetting to do balancing stuff I meant to do...

Third flower is uh...at the start. The first two Sluggers? (The yellow guys) Kill the second and roll the rock towards where he was, it triggers the cloud the flower's in. I figured that rock being there would make it clear, but I guess the fact that it's the brown remembers-its-position rock means people will see it less as a secret-finder and more a keep-this-with-you-to-reach-something-later-in-the-level. I'll have to ask Raiden if he'll move the brown rock to another level, if someone else isn't already using that gimmick. (Would've removed it myself, but I forgot how to do that.)


<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!
Originally posted by Nimono
1: So, for the vertical climb, remove the Slugger? Yeah, I get ya... I was meaning to remove him, but I wanted to push a demo out so I forgot to. Will remove him. Any other changes I should make with that area? Any other parts I should rebalance?
The icicle corridor... Yeah, I'd kinda like to leave it SOMEWHAT cramped, so dodging Kamek can be more dangerous, but I guess right now it's TOO cramped... I'll raise the ceiling, then.


In the climbing section, I'd say remove that horizontal fireball guy. He sometimes hits me as I jump upwards and he is off-screen.

Also perhaps you could remove the 1st fireball guy in the cramped ice section too. Give the player some time to get adjusted to the environment before putting the fireball guys in there. Plus the horizontal ones are hard to dodge with Kamek, and needing to duck or jump over it with that low ceiling, so it fits with your current setup of vertical then horizontal.

Originally posted by Nimono
Third flower is uh...at the start. The first two Sluggers? (The yellow guys) Kill the second and roll the rock towards where he was, it triggers the cloud the flower's in. I figured that rock being there would make it clear, but I guess the fact that it's the brown remembers-its-position rock means people will see it less as a secret-finder and more a keep-this-with-you-to-reach-something-later-in-the-level. I'll have to ask Raiden if he'll move the brown rock to another level, if someone else isn't already using that gimmick. (Would've removed it myself, but I forgot how to do that.)


I never thought about killing the slugger to the left and going past him. That seems like it pretty hidden and very missable in its current state with the player most likely not knowing there is a possibility of a hidden wing cloud past any slugger.

Also the brown chomp doesn't matter since you can't go far with it anyway. It did seem suspicious to me as why it was there, but no ideas came up as to what it might lead into, other than roll it off the hill and see what happens.

My first instinct was to just roll it forward (aka to the right) so maybe have the slugger on the right? Also killing the slugger first should be introduced somehow. Like have an obstacle where you hide a wing cloud with a spring behind a slugger, to get past an otherwise impassable tall hill. If it interferes too much or doesn't fit with the current level to have an obstacle like this, then perhaps that hidden wing cloud with the flower is best removed or replaced.
Originally posted by cramps-man

In the climbing section, I'd say remove that horizontal fireball guy. He sometimes hits me as I jump upwards and he is off-screen.

Also perhaps you could remove the 1st fireball guy in the cramped ice section too. Give the player some time to get adjusted to the environment before putting the fireball guys in there. Plus the horizontal ones are hard to dodge with Kamek, and needing to duck or jump over it with that low ceiling, so it fits with your current setup of vertical then horizontal.

I never thought about killing the slugger to the left and going past him. That seems like it pretty hidden and very missable in its current state with the player most likely not knowing there is a possibility of a hidden wing cloud past any slugger.

Also the brown chomp doesn't matter since you can't go far with it anyway. It did seem suspicious to me as why it was there, but no ideas came up as to what it might lead into, other than roll it off the hill and see what happens.

My first instinct was to just roll it forward (aka to the right) so maybe have the slugger on the right? Also killing the slugger first should be introduced somehow. Like have an obstacle where you hide a wing cloud with a spring behind a slugger, to get past an otherwise impassable tall hill. If it interferes too much or doesn't fit with the current level to have an obstacle like this, then perhaps that hidden wing cloud with the flower is best removed or replaced.

Alright, I'll reposition the first flower of the level, maybe just remove it entirely and have it later on. I'd replace one of the red coins at the end of the first section with it, but i feel that's way too close to the other flower in the level. For the icicle ceiling at the end, how many blocks would you recommend it be raised, based on your experience? Currently I've raised it by 2, but it feels a bit too high to me now, too easy to dodge everything but the icicles now that I've also removed the horizontal lava drops. Maybe I need more Bumpties for those icicles to be a bigger threat?

By the way...out of curiosity, how'd you get the flower at the end of the level? I want to make sure my intended solution was easily discerned and obtained.


<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!
I'd say 2 blocks higher is fine. But maybe you should also reduce the number of falling spikes instead. That area needs more safe spots in between the falling spikes. I do not think more bumpties are needed.

The main problem there is so many spikes at once with Kamek and that 1st fireball guy. You try to go past the fireball guy by jumping over it, but then spikes fall on your face. And since the ceiling is quite low compared to original 5-1, there is no time to dodge. Once again Kamek is icing on the cake here.

I got that flower with the bumpty. Eggs probably won't work as the angle needed is pretty hard. And seeing as how the bumpty was the only object nearby, it was quite obvious for me at least.

It would be great if some players killed the bumpty somehow, and then weren't able to grab that flower anymore. :D Or better yet, if they kill the slugger somehow. So have an area nearby to exit and return for re-spawning enemies required for such a puzzle.
Originally posted by cramps-man
I'd say 2 blocks higher is fine. But maybe you should also reduce the number of falling spikes instead. That area needs more safe spots in between the falling spikes. I do not think more bumpties are needed.

The main problem there is so many spikes at once with Kamek and that 1st fireball guy. You try to go past the fireball guy by jumping over it, but then spikes fall on your face. And since the ceiling is quite low compared to original 5-1, there is no time to dodge. Once again Kamek is icing on the cake here.

I got that flower with the bumpty. Eggs probably won't work as the angle needed is pretty hard. And seeing as how the bumpty was the only object nearby, it was quite obvious for me at least.

It would be great if some players killed the bumpty somehow, and then weren't able to grab that flower anymore. :D Or better yet, if they kill the slugger somehow. So have an area nearby to exit and return for re-spawning enemies required for such a puzzle.

Yeah... I keep forgetting to factor Kamek into my designs. You know, I should just turn off the rewind key in my emulator, I spam that when I get hit, so it's really bad for testing difficulty... Thanks for the advice!

Glad to hear ya got the flower with the bumpty- that's the intended solution! (It's also possible with a Shy Guy, and that's actually a good bit easier, too. but it ain't a Bumpty!) I'll probably put another bumpty up on the ledge so if the player kills the first bumpty, they can see the setup before the second, and think "Hmm, maybe the Bumpty will help...?" But what if they don't even know Bumpties can get smacked around? Hopefully, the third Slugger I have in the level will answer that for them- it's probable that a player might slurp up the Bumpty and spit it out at the Slugger, at which point they'll see it try to bat it back, maybe succeeding...at which point the bumpty goes in the pit. Giggles for all.


<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!
Agree with the sentiment of that ice section being really tough lol.

As far as where to go next, I recommend a magikoopa Kamek section (like in 6-8) but on ice. Satisfies Kamek and cold, and I don't think we've seen many of that sprite.

--------------------
wiki
I decided to restart section 2 and got this:



Yes, Kamek's magic is glitched out there because it's coded to ONLY work when the level mode is set to 0A, making the tileset Kamek's Room... Raiden's working on it right now, I believe. Hope to have a new beta up soon!


<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!
It looks like it'd be really difficult to see the magic against the blizzard in the foreground. I can't really tell without the proper magic sprites, though.

It would also be really interesting to see if you could get the Kamek blocks working in this tileset. Using Kamek to destroy the environment for player progression could be cool.
Originally posted by ZeNewDragon
It looks like it'd be really difficult to see the magic against the blizzard in the foreground. I can't really tell without the proper magic sprites, though.

It would also be really interesting to see if you could get the Kamek blocks working in this tileset. Using Kamek to destroy the environment for player progression could be cool.

That would be interesting... I'll ask raiden about that! Though, I must say, right now it's an autoscroller, so "player progression by kamek" would be tough to do... ^^


<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!
So, I figured out what was going on. Actually I already knew this but forgot. Level mode 0A has a completely hardcoded graphics loading. Luckily, it should be enough to just do this:

Code
JSL $00B4D3


in SPASM init code to load the Kamek graphics (I tested and have magikoopa kamek, and magic sprite, working in 1-1), only problem is it also loads some other graphics too so some stuff is corrupted. I can get this really granular but why don't you start there and see what's workable? Let me know if you need help with SPASM.

Y'know what would be way easier? If no one else is using level mode 0A, we can feel free to completely get exactly what you want from it, since it's all hardcoded anyway we can just replace it with the shit you need. Let me know, I'll ask Falconpunch if he plans on doing a kamek autoscroller section.

--------------------
wiki
That sounds good to me, Raiden. I don't know how to use SPASM, though, so I'll definitely need help with that...


<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!
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Forum Index - Events - Collaboration Projects - SMWC Island - [DEAD] 4-5 - Kamek's Cold Quarry

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