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Fanservice In Anime: Your Take
Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Forum Graveyard - Anime & Manga - Fanservice In Anime: Your Take
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Originally posted by Counterfeit
I'm not expanding this territory beyond cartoons as you are asserting by stating that I am referring to "media" as a whole rather than animation/CGI, and I don't agree with trying to rationalize such a gross overinterpretation people are making over what is rather innocuous. Whether or not something is mainstream is irrelevant: they are partaking in hypocritical practices. It is wrong for them to demand censorship in one field yet anything they approve of can fly. Yes, some women do believe that objectification encourages men to go there. This is littered all over Tumblr, where this neo-feminism blew up in the first place. Women on Tumblr also objectify men heavily as sex objects - I know this because I used to use the site and all they'd do is lust over shirtless or younger pictures of the musicians I listened to. I state rape and molestation because those are objectively crimes against women and men. Thought crime is not crime, and what stays inside someone's head is not a threat or a form of oppression.

I stand by that it is shallow and empty to complain of a problem they derive from obsessively overinterpreting. "My version is okay and yours is not" is not okay with me. The sex war is stupid. Both parties are guilty of it to each other, but only one sex is less ashamed to admit.

I remain unconvinced, and your argument has holes in it also. We should agree to disagree on this matter, as we will not find common ground.

By 'media' I was referring to anime/manga and games, in other words what this topic was originally formed to discuss. Again, I see what you mean regarding hypocrisy. On more then one occasion I'd be reading some (intelligent, well-articulated, makes plenty of good points elsewhere) feminist criticizing Fanservice and I'd think, would you be nearly as vehement opposing this if it was hot guys being 'objectified'?

And for shows like Free that pretty much are that, I've heard all kinds of justifications as to why they're totally different which strike me kind of flimsy. Something about how Free presents the man's whole body as sexy whereas objectifying male-gaze focused works just concentrate on/fetishize individual parts like breasts and butts? The argument actually struck me as fairly reasonable, but I couldn't help but sense an undercurrent of "When we do it, it's empowering and sexy, when you do it it's objectifying and sexist".

Your mention of 'thought crimes' here seems out of place. Nobody's talking about banning 'objectifying' media outright, just discussing what kind of societal trends such media is reflecting. Presenting a skimpily dressed drawing of a woman is perfectly harmless in vacuo, but could very well be a manifestation of a broader patriarchal culture that is harmful. Nobody's saying that depicting sexy/attractive women is evil or that doujin artists should be shipped into ghettos or anything. Just asking "What kind of society is this coming from?"

It's not the existence of Fanservice that is the (arguable) problem, but the overwhelming one-sidedness of it. The issue is not with the Fanservice itself but how it's catered to the male market (hence why I cited favorably examples of "equal opportunity Fanservice"). Shows that could have been equal opportunity end up laden with Fanservice and harem elements that drive off women while not really adding much to the work as a whole. If there was at least somewhat of an attempt to balance it out with sexual content for the female half of the audience it'd be fine, but how often is that so?

Honestly, if you're writing a Fanservicey scene and you find yourself thinking "this would gross out/alienate men if the genders were flipped" then, maybe consider leaving it out. Fanservice shouldn't by any more overt then you'd tolerate regarding your own gender. Consider it the 'Golden Rule' of Fanservice, if you will. Obviously there's exceptions if you're making an ecchi/hentai series, that is explicitly intended to arouse one gender or the other. There's nothing inherently wrong with that either, the issue is when it contaminates a series that could otherwise have held more universal appeal.

Evil flower of Pure Illusion... we're going to pluck you out!
you're forgetting the part where most anime is in fact marketed to men. so it shouldn't be that surprising that the fanservice will reinforce that marketing focus.

and really, to get upset about cartoons says more about the current state of feminism than it does about the "oppressing culture women have to endure"
Yeah, that was an excruciatingly difficult topic for me and I tend to go from zero to sixty. I may have gotten carried away just because of the nature of it and where it comes from. Those people are so out of their tree that I go out of my tree when it's referenced. I apologize.

I feel like now it's more about what it should be.

See, when you talk about Free, that's what I was referencing: the hypocrisy. I do think a lot of fan works offset the amount of fanservice of female characters in mainstream anime: there's a ton of stuff that sexualizes males in fan works, a lot of them made by females, or made to appeal to them. For whatever reason, it's more on the down-low. It's still out there and real, though. I think maybe the reason why you're seeing it in such disproportion is it's predominantly males that watch it, and quite a lot of teenage girls.

If we can step off of anime to talk about fanservice and publications in general:

I don't think a form of medium needs to be balanced to appeal to all types of demographics. Stuff made "in a vacuum" is pure. When one starts considering broadening their audience at the expense of what they want to make, with pressures like "political correctness" or appealing to everybody to suppress what it is the author wants to express, it's not the author's work anymore because the pressure of an audience changed it. It's a censorship of sorts, or it's forced to include something that shouldn't belong and it shows.

This is where I feel fanservice in the broad sense becomes a diminishing factor - when it's done not because the author wants it in there (incidental fanservice,) but because the work is now conscious of its audience and wants to give them nods. Now, that's not always the pervy shows doing it - meme fanservice is the worst kind. It's without identity.

I'm just desensitized to what "objectification" could mean or is, regardless of which sex it is. I personally don't feel objectified when I see cleavage or panty shots or lolis, nor do I feel offended. I don't feel pressured to achieve a level of beauty because that's not what I'm about. My body is a shell and I could care less how people view it. I wouldn't feel bothered if the same was done with a guy. I wouldn't want someone to bend their work to cater to me if I didn't agree with it. I'd merely find something else.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
Originally posted by Torchkas
you're forgetting the part where most anime is in fact marketed to men. so it shouldn't be that surprising that the fanservice will reinforce that marketing focus.

Not so. Just because something is the case (marketed to men), doesn't mean that it ought to be the case.

Evil flower of Pure Illusion... we're going to pluck you out!
More works that appeal to women could be published, with or without fanservice, but that takes an understanding of what *generally* appeals to women. I would think, but with exceptions, stories by women are more likely to have subject matter that appeal to women: it could be coming from a place that's easier to digest, whereas men, also with exceptions, know what men like and would be willing to see and hear, by virtue of conditioning over their lives first and foremost, and what comes naturally second. Are a lot of women involved in making these stories in the first place? Are the majority men? These are all points to consider. I, for one, fall out of most of the works classified as being intended for "me" (if I fell into the expectations of the demographic definition) because they generally bore me, and end up liking the stuff targetted at the other gender far more because it delivers action, suspense, comedy, and general subject matter I care more for, with or without fanservice.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
It honestly surprises me that people actually get their white and blue striped panties in a knot over bouncing boobs or a panty shot (Not saying anyone here is doing this, just in general I find it silly).

The way I see it is this: Japan's culture is way different than ours, so certain things there are more accepted than in other places. If this kind of fanservice was being shown in american animation (at least as frequently as it is in anime), then there would be a giant shitstorm. Its not our culture, so in my opinion it isn't out place to judge them just because we don't like something they do.

And here's the million dollar question: Who cares?

So what if characters are sexualized in a show from a different culture than ours? Does it really affect you that much? I just don't get why this is even a thing.
Where is StrikeForcer?

Nobody can really say if a fictional character on screen is affecting them or not. It's one simple push of a button to make it all stop, so there's not much one can say there. As far as children being exposed to it, well, if parents were better parents, then their children wouldn't be exposed.

Fanservice in my opinion hasn't affected anybody in a bad way; it's just that people in general need something to antagonize, and lots of people like to turn to unfamiliar things, like another culture's animation cliques or styles.

It's not going to make my day horrible if I see a fictional character sexualized on a screen. SJW's need to open their eyes and wake up.

EDIT: I'm not even going to justify a response to the below, and instead just edit this post. I read, I processed and I'm not 12 years old, I know of a thing called "understanding and response". Anybody that reads my post should be able to "process" that I'm agreeing with Undertaker's point of view.
I mean, I agree that that's a thing you could say if you completely missed the point and didn't process anything anyone else said, yeah.

Your layout has been removed.
To be honest, I dunno why people just get so worked up against fanservice. Like seriously, I know that there are a lot of mothers/feminists in the USA that hate this, but I just dont see why. Like most people said here, its just a subject that SJWs use to fuel their opinions WITHOUT first considering the country`s costumes. Now, I`m not saying I`m not down for equality about this subject, but I still dont quite understand the ``sexualizing women is wrong and sexualizing men is cool´´ mentality, you know?

Also, to not deviate from the subject at hand, for me, fanservice basically depends if its not totally accidental. Like seriously, almost every time I see accidental fanservice its just pure cringe for me. However, when its not actually accidental, I actually react differently than that, but I should probably stop now. XD
Layout by Mathos
Whatever fanservice there is, I'll take it. Just don't put too much to where it takes over the plot. Otherwise, I'll take all of it.
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I don't like it personally, but I don't hate it, not just what I'm into.
What I tend to like doesn't really have fanservice generally, anyway.
I don't really care all that much, but I can't take some things seriously because of fanservice (Senran Kagura comes to mind).

But well, it's ok to like it, and it's ok to exist.
I really don't mind, even if I'm not into this kind of stuff.
There's no point in complaining about it.

I think random close-ups are pretty silly in general, if there's no reason, it just feels kinda weird, awkward and unnatural.
But still, as I said, there's no point in complaining.

I don't judge people who like it, there's no problem in liking it.
Just like I don't want people to judge what I like.

But a more personal opinion for me is that anime with fanservice, on my view tend to be pretty bad or boring.
Not because of the fanservice itself, but just because they're not that, so the fanservice might as well just be filling the gap and hiding that fact.

But again, this is a personal opinion, and it probably doesn't apply to everything, especially because I haven't seen everything.
Quite the opposite, I'm not much of a anime watcher, especially newer ones.

And even manga, which is more of my cup of tea, is something I'm not really "tuned in".
Reviving this thread since I found more to say on the topic and this seemed like the most relevant place to put it.

Can't believe there's actually people (like here) going on in all apparent seriousness about how "unfeminist" anime like Akiba's Trip are. I mean, I sympathize with the cause as much as any good feminist but seriously? What could you possibly be expecting going into a show like that other then goofy, pandering trash aimed squarely at the male gaze? From the other side of the spectrum, but it's honestly not so dissimilar to some archetypal dudebro going into a fujoshi anime and complaining how gross it is to see dudes making out.

I repeat: What on earth could you possibly be expecting? While I won't try to claim that analyzing anime (or any other media, obviously) from a feminist or social justice point-of-view is inherently flawed, to note that horny male pandering ecchi is *gasp* pandering to horny men as if this is some kind of revolutionary conclusion overturning the logic of the world is something I can't possibly understand. I blame this on the pernicious mentality (propagated under Tumblr, but obviously not originated there) that one has some moral obligation to watch shows one hates and rant on how terrible they are rather then just, y'know... not watching them.

There are certainly some shows that it'd be productive to analyze in terms of feminist discourse. Akiba's Trip is, as is obvious to anyone with common sense, not one of them.

Might be being needlessly harsh here (I don't want to turn into that guy making long internet rants over the ~evils of feminism~) but I feel I had to get that out of my system after reading the article above. If you feel like it, you can read the article and come to your own conclusions on whether my take on the matter was accurate. Cheers!

I'm aware this might look like it somewhat goes against my more nuanced stance in the beginning of this thread but I feel there's a difference between saying "Let's try to have more shows empathizing with the female perspective" versus "shows openly catering to a male audience are inherently contemptible and worthy of being skewered". The cited article I feel, intentionally or not, advocates for the latter perspective and I can't approve of that.

Akiba's Trip may be (let's be honest here, is) a piece of silly, self-indulgent trash but damn it people have the right to enjoy that kind of thing! Just as women have the right to enjoy their homo-erotic swimmer anime without shaming. Creating things women can appreciate shouldn't mean destroying things that men like, or at least so this (straight, white, cis) man would say.

Evil flower of Pure Illusion... we're going to pluck you out!
If people executed fanservice as good as the writers for Pokemon XYZ did, I would be all for it.
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