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Kaizo Levels: Yes/No

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Kaizo has been misused for years as being "near impossible" when in the original Kaizo games it has been used as "rage inducing & unfair", but can be done save stateless. Morsel's levels are this kind of style, but I wouldn't really count it as Kaizo because his levels are fair for people who pay real close attention to the obstacles present. If it was Kaizo, there wouldn't be coin hints or retry doors. The term "Kaizo" has evolved into the whole "near impossible" trope thanks to those like MoltovMarioWorld & others trying to create the most impossible ROM hack, and they ended up being save state fests. Then the term "Hard Kaizo" came thanks to Worldpeace's Cool or Cruel hack where you are required to use save states to beat the levels, and the hack is still super hard. Ironicly, Kaizo has began to become easier again to the point where Super Mario World: Remix and Banzai Mario World came to be where each level can be completed without save states, which are actually slightly easier and more forgiving than the original three Kaizo Mario Worlds. SMW:R and BMW are labled as "Kaizo: Light" considering it's "less than unfair" difficulty, and I believe Morsel's level fits into that way better.

What I'm trying to say is that the term "Kaizo" has been thrown around since the very beginning, and now we're all confused as to what the difference is between Hard and Kaizo: Light is. Here's what I believe is the fits for the Kaizo categories:
Hard - K-16: Story of Steel, Endgame Gamma V Levels
Kaizo: Light - Banzai Mario World & SMW: Remix
"True Kaizo" - The Original Kaizo Mario World & it's Sequels
Kaizo: Hard - Cool or Cruel & Sokobansolver's Hacks
Pit - Pit of Death, Living on the Edge, Glitch Abuse, etc.

Back to the topic: I vote for Yes but Goal Spheres are added.
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As much as I appreciate the kaizo hackers' effort and creativity put into their VLDC entries, I honestly see no point on having them in this contest in the first place besides them being, well, vanilla. Well, that's the thing: we renamed the contest to VLDC Level Design Contest for a reason, as dumb as it may sound. This contest isn't only about doing good vanilla levels anymore, it has got its own identity with its own set of rules and restrictions, giving a bit more focus on how creative you can be with vanilla resources. Although these kaizo entries are technically vanilla, that alone doesn't make them fit 100% into the specific style we set for this contest.

Let's get to the main issues though: the kaizo level design mindset focuses on giving the player a hard time with frustratingly complex obstacles and layouts, while non-kaizo level design is all about being fun with simple obstacles and layouts. Kaizo isn't all about hard difficulty, it's also about complex level designing. You can make a normal hack insanely hard by spamming it with the most challenging enemies and stuff, and it still wouldn't be what we consider kaizo. My point is: kaizo is more different of a hacking style than it may seem, and having two completely different styles within the same contest is a problem, because one of them won't fit the established standards. The VLDC is meant for entrants, judges and players that want to make, judge, or play levels that are fun because of their fairness and simplicity, not because of their hardness and complexity. Kaizo has its own audience and you can't just expect the VLDC to be made adequate for it, imo.

That's exactly why the kaizo genre has its own LDC btw. There's really no reason for people to make kaizo entries for the VLDC when they could be directing all their effort and ideas for the KLDC, which is obviously the more fitting contest for those.

Also, what Magi said.
Is this going to be the 2016 version of the panties debate?

Just put them in with a goal sphere, we've done that for the past two years. A poll wasn't needed for this.
Saddest thing about Kaizo, is that the original Kaizo Mario World is said to be beatable without savestates. The problem comes with imitators that do not get the entire concept of the original.

As for the vldc9 levels that are not kaizo, I think the poll is a false dictonomy because some of the levels talked about here are not considered to be Kaizo but one in which the player with the average skill level wouldnt have the patience to play. Id goal sphere those stages but to disqualify them would be unfair in all honestly (except for mimikani's).

Originally posted by "Falconpunch"

No. This isn't a Kaizo level design contest. Wrong contest, stupid kaizo hackers!


Also FP, your opinion is shit. Just because we have kaizo hackers submitting levels here doesnt mean that they are made to break the rules of this contest.

Edited for expanded opinions: I can understand wanting to shift the focus from using vanilla resources creatively to having simple and fun designed levels being what this edition of the vanilla levle design contest set forth itself based on community input earlier but right now I do not want to see levels being disqualified just because their creators may as well had flawed execution of ideas to experiment about, as doing so discourages others who may want to experiment with those ideas but perhaps make something fun out of it.
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For those asking "Why disqualify" instead of "Yes, but goal sphere". It's due to the fact that too many levels were submitted for the contest, thus meaning leaving them out of the collab rom in favor of the less difficult levels. Though I see no reason for there not to be a second rom dedicated to said "left out" stages. >_> If you're going to goal sphere them, why not just have a "Goal Sphere" rom?
We're talking about like, 110+ submissions, Skewer, and we can only fit up to 85 levels in a single hack. I'd hate to see a lot of the levels not get presented due to a low score...
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No. Kazio levels wouldn't fit well with the rest of the levels in VLDC. They are just too different than regular vanilla levels.



It's an unfortunate situation, but that's what happens when a popular contest has lots of levels submitted. A warning was even put out that if more levels than SMW's OW can handle were submitted, there was a high chance that some levels might not appear. I'd think that the levels that score the lowest will not make an appearance in the main collaboration rom.
At least the lowest ones would mostly be generic levels or kaizo levels, or maybe disqualified ones?
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I chose the right option.
Obviously Kaizo levels do not belong in this contest. Not only that, but every level should (eventually) be beatable without savestates. And yes, I realize that "true Kaizo" is beatable without savestates, but that takes a really long time and usually can only be done by somewhat experienced players.

I think that morsel, lazy, etc should have goal orbs. Actually, I would say that, since there can only be 85 levels, I would wait and see what score the judges give each one honestly and judge it level by lebel, rather than grouping them together. I'm leaning towards excluding them, since why should decent levels not get a place in the collab if a level with a goal orb does? They aren't Kaizo levels, just really hard. However, I thought we already agreed that joke levels and Kaizo levels (low hanging fruit) would be disqualified?

Originally posted by Falconpunch
Wrong contest, kaizo hackers!


Umm, as a Kaizo hacker myself, this sounds kinda ridiculous. This makes more sense:

Originally posted by Falconpunch
Wrong contest, hackers who submitted kaizo levels!
Oh, I didn't know you were a Kaizo Hacker. I knew Sokobansolver was, but yeah, that does sound better.
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Disqualify any entry that was made with the intention of scoring as low (or even as "unfair" and "sadistic") as possible. Anyone can make levels like those- reserve the bottom for people who "legitimately" earned their placement.

Yes they break the rules, yes they should be taken off from the main hack.
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Originally posted by MrDeePay
Disqualify any entry that was made with the intention of scoring as low (or even as "unfair" and "sadistic") as possible. Anyone can make levels like those- reserve the bottom for people who "legitimately" earned their placement.


There doesn't seem to be any kind of those this time around.
Disqualify joke levels (jschaaa, minikami, m a r i o w o r l d, and some others I'm forgetting)

Try to insert all the levels that accounted for the player's abilities. If and only if when all those levels have been added, and it's still possible to add the VVVVVV levels (i'd rather not call them kaizo), add them, but with a goal sphere. Tbh, they should not place properly in ranking, but will still get a typical score because of how all four (Matterhorn, Swiss Hotel, Underground Theatre, and Woah Radicola) are showcases of pure creativity, just not counted in ranking; but that's just me.

Originally posted by Zyglrox Odyssey
Personal feelings aside, one can't really absolutely define the line between "hard" and "too hard"; it's all relative to one's own skill level and tolerance for challenge. For the purposes of a contest you could work with the definition of "all the judges agree it's too hard" I suppose, but inevitably there'd be dissenting opinions on the matter. If you guys don't mind that then fair enough, but it's a thing.

That's fine and dandy but there's a clear line in knowing how to design for the medium, in this case, vanilla Super Mario World with set limits and restrictions. A level that knows what works in this contest is well designed level, and what doesn't work is a badly designed level. Whether or not your level is easy or hard or unfair, the level gets the score it deserve if it sorely misses this basic principle.

Your level, and by extension, the other four levels in question (and possibly some others I haven't played) miss that basic principle. They present extremely hard puzzle obstacles that require either level knowledge (aka trial and error) and a higher skill ceiling in a setting that is inconvenient for the player. This contest has time, lives, and a single (two if you're creative) checkpoint per level. A level where you die over and over because you lacked level knowledge combined with gameplay that demands a lot from the player does not work in that setting. I keep calling these levels "VVVVVV" levels for a reason. Not that VVVVV is a bad game, but that said is fantastic because the levels are made for it. Constant checkpoints because the player will die over and over? Check. Instant respawning? Check. No lives so no game overs? Check. No artificial difficulty caused by said game over that forces you to obstacles you've already managed to pass through? Check. The game works because it provides a setting where puzzle platformers work.

In VLDC9 you don't have that. Sure, there will be hard levels, but the good ones are ones that work with the limits the contest sets. Those who can't get pass them are met with what I coin the "Tubular Principle", or simply put, git gud. It's hard but it's designed around the limits of what VLDC9 presents. The "too hard" levels are the ones that don't understand that.

I don't want to replay Swiss Hotel's porcupuffer's section and that obnoxious door drop because I messed up on that piss easy boss. I don't want to replay the entirety of the outside area of Matterhorn because a dragon coin room that I was in killed me. I don't want to time that throw block onto that 1-up again because I got stuck from not knowing what to do in one of the snake eater puzzles in Underground theatre. And I don't want to replay everything else I've done in woah radicola because after finally figuring out how to get past a certain screen only to die on the next screen because it was new and I didn't know how to do it. It's not fun. And they're not fun because they aren't a medium that makes them fun.

Originally posted by Zyglrox Odyssey
Unless I'm missing something there is no such rule. I see mention of not making your level too easy or too hard in the scoring, and I see mention that levels can be removed or made optional at the discretion of the team working on the hack for such reasons as "too long or frustrating" or "you had toast for breakfast", but I see no mention of complete disqualification from the contest for difficulty.

Oh come on you literally cite it. Levels will not be included if they are "too long or frustrating". Frustration doesn't come from a level being easy.
Geometry Dash also works as a comparison, just saying

Also, I'm up for just judging everything as is and taking out the bottom 20 or so. Whatever if mine gets taken out, at least I get 1/0 for effort.

Also I know some people double posted in the submissions thread?
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Voted for no. It's all or nothing, since the middle option doesn't exist.
No cause there's no optional option.
Requiring any normal player to beat Kaizo levels to get completion is a terrible idea.
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I vote yes with goal sphere. Aka, optional levels. We can have a optional kaizo/extremely difficult world if anything.

Also Jack you should have included the levels that are under that condition. I have absolutely no idea what kind of difficult you're talking about. Like some people said, Kaizo can be pretty much only challenging levels or semi-pit entries. You have to clear on what levels are we discussing on, for the matter of transparency.

Additionally, who said there's the 85 level limit? The ROM will have all levels included. Jack will code a OW expansion patch. And in case he fails, I will do one myself based on SA-1 The Last Remap capabilities.
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