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VLDC9 Results - Judge comments added

Still, the contest is about the level and not about the builder and how they improved, for example. So I don't see how not-anonymising it would help.

Also GSG would be a cool judge. Chester make it happen plz.

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Originally posted by Frost
I'd be fine without anonymous judging if players are not allowed to talk directly to judges about their levels. There's probably a proper term for that but I'm gonna say that's a "conflict of interest".


Solution 1: Withhold who the judges are until after the contest deadline is reached.

Solution 2: Tell the judges not to answer anything pertaining to the quality of a would-be entrant's level.

I see little substantial advantage to keeping anonymous judges aside from making a few people who can't handle losing to the same people over and over and not improving themselves. And even then, the benefit is miniscule.

Originally posted by Frost
Originally posted by MrDeePay
Giving out the max score possible doesn't necessarily mean a level is perfect.

Okay since when is a perfect score not an indication of "perfect"?

There are different schools of thought on this matter. Some people will never rate something a 10/10 because nothing is ever perfect. Some people will rate something a 10/10 because it is in the best of the best. It's true the scoring system here is more fine-tuned, but I think the point still stands.
Originally posted by chineesmw
Well, at least I'm glad the judges didn't disqualify a contestant for exposing his or herself and instead, giving a few point reductions.

So, I guess I'm supporting anonymous judging too #tb{:j}

;)

Anyway information hiding would be nice, e.g. don't look at twitch chat for puzzle answers that might be there for some reason.
Yeah, I think many of us expected the same people to win that usually win. But who's to say that worldpeace's or S.N.N.'S levels wouldn't have done just a tiny bit better had the judges known who they were? I know when I watch a video for a worldpeace level, I dismiss the kinda iffy aesthetics because we all know that's just his style, so I could see judging being affected that way. Of course. That's just me. A good judge is supposed to be completely 100% unbiased so technically we have no need for anonymous judging as long as we have truly objective judges. That's why we don't ask random users to be judges.

No one has brought this up but non-anonymous judging might potentially hurt good level designers. If you open up a level made by worldpeace and it's not his best work, the reaction is disappointment. But if you open up a level from a user known for bad levels, and it's a fantastic level, the reaction is being pleasantly surprised. Of course, this doesn't affect judging if we truly have objective judges, like I already said.
I don´t care about my score/ranking, so - for me - it doesn´t really matter, whether the judging is anonymous or not.

But as Gbreeze said, usually judges should be 100% objective. But as long as the judges are human beings they can be influenced by multiple factors, such as previously played levels, whether they had a good day or not or knowing who the author is (and so expecting a quality level (or not)). So I think, to minimalize the influencing factors the judging should be anonymous, too the next years. Even if it delays the Resulst-Releasing it prevents judges from judging levels biased by knowing who the author is.








Definitely have to agree with Leiras here. Anonymous judging removes a potential factor of subjectivity, and I'd like to think as many of those should be removed as possible.
I really need a layout. :<
I personally think we're worrying way too much here. Even with anonymous judging, there's one problem with that: Certain users have specific styles, whether in design, decoration, or palette, so it's quite easy to tell who made what that way. Not all of them, but some of them. How are we removing bias that way? To use their styles is to say "HEY, I MADE THIS LEVEL AND NOW YOU KNOW IT, JUDGES!", but we also can't tell them "Don't use your favorite styles, make the most generic level you can" because that will lead to less people joining.

So, why are we worrying so much about this? There's already a simple solution here: if a judge shows bias, kick them out and discount their scores. :) We don't need anonymous judging to ensure the judges stay in line, because we already have a system in place for that!

(also I really enjoyed streaming the levels and I HATED being unable to see my stream's chat because of this dumb rule lol)
<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money
Next year we all build hotels.

Problem solved.
Here's a great way to get high scores! ::: Do a better job.

A good way to get a good score is to do three things:
1) Don't make something frustrating, focus on fun.
2) Be unique. Try to do something somebody else hasn't done.
3) Don't flood with aesthetics. They're good and all, but if they take away from the level, then better they're not there. However, don't neglect them, a basic looking level won't score too decently as others are focusing on aesthetics.

Another thing you can do is refuse to share your level until the last minute; that way somebody else can't get inspired by your stuff and steal your idea, only to do it better. There are assholes who will do that: if not now, then maybe in the future.
Oh, another question:

Will the time limit thing be a thing in the next contest? It made things kinda limited.
Originally posted by Skewer
Here's a great way to get high scores! ::: Do a better job.

Thank you for that enlightening and helpful comment that definitely has everything to do with the subject at hand
Originally posted by Rockythetigre
Oh, another question:

Will the time limit thing be a thing in the next contest? It made things kinda limited.

500 seconds is a good amount of time. That's about 9 minutes per level, if I did my math right. I'm glad we have no gauntlet levels this time around and I'd rather not have any more.
That being said people still somehow found a way to go around that by makinh batshit hard levels, and next year I think it'd be for the best if there's stricter rules on extremely difficult/kaizo/puzzle platformer/vvvvvv wannabee/goal sphere levels. Although I guess a harsh score is punishment enough.

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Originally posted by MercuryPenny
Originally posted by Skewer
Here's a great way to get high scores! ::: Do a better job.

Thank you for that enlightening and helpful comment that definitely has everything to do with the subject at hand


How does it not? Perform better -> Better Score, and any worthwhile competent judge will recognize that. Advocating for anonymous judging just implies that someone can't handle losing to someone better than them.

Again, what meaningful advantages are there to anonymous judging?

The argument for it is to eliminate potential bias. Bias isn't always conscious. Just seeing a name could potentially be enough to influence some people, even if they don't go out of their way to try to rank their friends higher.
Originally posted by Frost
Although I guess a harsh score is punishment enough.

I would think so.

Originally posted by Skewer
A good way to get a good score is to do three things:
1) Don't make something frustrating, focus on fun.
2) Be unique. Try to do something somebody else hasn't done.

By now so many things have been done in vanilla SMW (well over a decade in fact) that's almost certainly mutually exclusive, and if by some chance you think of something that hasn't been done, executing it well is like finding the key to easy evangelism.
I would say that frustration is often subjective, but I think VLDC judges are plenty skilled and patient enough that if you manage to make something that frustrates even them, then you've screwed up.

Originally posted by Skewer
Another thing you can do is refuse to share your level until the last minute; that way somebody else can't get inspired by your stuff and steal your idea, only to do it better.

In other words, DON'T MAKE A THREAD FOR YOUR LEVEL! So many people fall into that trap. In a way that also makes things harder cuz that means no beta-testing.
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A site where you can be able to hit that dislike where your dislike will be visible to other people and not have to rely on a browser extension as well as actually watch my SMW hacking content

Originally posted by MercuryPenny
Originally posted by Skewer
Here's a great way to get high scores! ::: Do a better job.

Thank you for that enlightening and helpful comment that definitely has everything to do with the subject at hand

I like how that's the only thing you saw of my post even though there are several lines below giving you actual tips on how to do better.

Originally posted by SokobanSolver
In other words, DON'T MAKE A THREAD FOR YOUR LEVEL! So many people fall into that trap. In a way that also makes things harder cuz that means no beta-testing.


In the end, it's still advice and thus there's no obligation to follow it. Not that there's anything wrong with sharing a level, but you'd think for a contest people might actually want to keep what they got to themselves, test properly to ensure that they score as high as they can. When it comes to contests, you can't afford to be friendly, lest you put others higher than yourself in the end. There's no denying the possibility that, for example, had Frost kept his opinions on everybody's levels to himself, he might have ended up scoring higher; because I know for a fact that had he not have criticized my level like he did, I wouldn't have scored 13th place. For that, I am thankful that somebody else helped me score higher.

I'm sorry, but being nice can hurt you when it comes to contests. I am a pretty competitive individual.

I am so rude when it comes to stuff like this, I know it stings.

As far as coming up with an original idea, as always said, good luck. SBS is right when it comes to this, as it's hard to do. If you're creative enough though, which I'm obviously not as I made a level called Triangle Ship of all things, it'll really pay off in the long run, and for lack of better phrasing, you might actually make something memorable like that Fulcrum Level.

If you focus on making the level fun, you should score very decently in the end.
Originally posted by MrDeePay
How does it not? Perform better -> Better Score, and any worthwhile competent judge will recognize that.

That's a given but I don't see how it makes any sense to say that when people are discussing anonymous judging

Originally posted by MrDeePay
Advocating for anonymous judging just implies that someone can't handle losing to someone better than them.

Or they just liked how it played out.

Or they don't have a sense of trust with the judges.

I don't really side with anyone but I take issue with the generalization here, people can have any manner of reasons for supporting an idea. Saying that the very fact someone is supporting something means they think in one way is assuming everyone thinks exactly the same way.

Originally posted by MrDeePay
Again, what meaningful advantages are there to anonymous judging?

I dunno. I'm probably not even going to participate in the next VLDC so I don't really care either way.

Maybe a pro-anonymity person could argue but honestly I can't argue for or against, both sides make compelling points, but seeing as how an overpowering majority support it we all know how it's going to end.

Originally posted by Skewer
I like how that's the only thing you saw of my post, even though there are several lines below giving you actual tips on how to do better. I never realized upsetting people was this much fun though.

I just took issue with the tone of the comment you put right at the top because it reeked of hostility, and typically when you put something like that at the beginning it tends to set the tone for the rest. If that's not actually how you feel then I suppose that's fine, but that little comment led me to believe otherwise so just something to know.

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Originally posted by K3fka
The argument for it is to eliminate potential bias. Bias isn't always conscious. Just seeing a name could potentially be enough to influence some people, even if they don't go out of their way to try to rank their friends higher.


Only effects expectations at most, which any worthwhile judge should not let cloud their judgment.



Originally posted by MercuryPenny
Originally posted by MrDeePay
How does it not? Perform better -> Better Score, and any worthwhile competent judge will recognize that.

That's a given but I don't see how it makes any sense to say that when people are discussing anonymous judging


Anonymous judging is not and was not necessary.

Originally posted by MrDeePay
Advocating for anonymous judging just implies that someone can't handle losing to someone better than them.

Or they just liked how it played out.

Or they don't have a sense of trust with the judges.</div></div>

That's their own damn problem, not the judges'. This was never an issue until a few people got mad that their friends kept losing to entrants that were just better than them and didn't wish to own up to their own shortcomings.


Quote
Maybe a pro-anonymity person could argue but honestly I can't argue for or against, both sides make compelling points, but seeing as how an overpowering majority support it we all know how it's going to end.


Generally speaking, the popular opinion doesn't necessarily always mean the best.

Quote
I just took issue with the tone of the comment you put right at the top because it reeked of hostility, and typically when you put something like that at the beginning it tends to set the tone for the rest. If that's not actually how you feel then I suppose that's fine, but that little comment led me to believe otherwise so just something to know.



Or maybe some people need to stop looking for excuses to justify why they continue to lose to people better than them in a contest. The best way to stop this? Be better than them.


What I want to know is what's with the "sudden" downpour of "I want anonymous judging!" which stems from a few people in a different contest being upset that their friend(s) lost that contest to someone better than them. Everything related to the judging (in both who and how it was handled with this anon junk) just sounds like that it was overcompensated for to the point of just flat-out pandering.

Edit: Ninjas for the win.

The reason I brought up scores is because they weren't too far behind. Five posts in an active thread isn't far away. As far as hostility goes, one could say I come off as that because I don't beat around the bush, sugar coating and what have you. If I really wanted to be hostile, check out my latest post in SMWCI for a pinch of salt.

And anonymous judging, I had long given my thoughts on it. Those who scored higher I'm noticing are okay with Anonymous Judging, and those who scored lower, for the most are not. Anonymous or not, if a level is badly designed in any of the judging departments, it's going to score lower; regardless if the judges know who made it or not.

Bias is always an issue. Anonymous Judging I'd say is essential, take for example if I wanted to participate in the next VLDC, and antimatterhunter wanted to judge. Everybody knows we're brothers and live in the same house. It wouldn't work if he knew I designed a level because:
• If I score high, one could argue that I got high scores simply because he's my brother.
• If I scored low, I (and maybe others) could argue I got low scores because he didn't want to appear biased.

The whole argument is subject regarding that scenario, but there are several scenarios that could take place. Anonymous Judging is one of the better developments we've had for this contest.