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american election thread
Forum Index - Donut Plains - General Discussion - american election thread
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I honestly don't get how literally nobody thinks beating ISIS should be a top priority.

They came about because Obama withdrew troops out of Iraq all at once which let ISIS form with nobody watching them.

We need to hit them hard as soon as possible before we get screwed yet again by an inefficient president.

AHHAA OLOLL TRUMP ISS INEFEICENT CUZ HE RASIST AND HE GO BANKRUP HAHAHAHA INSERT WALL JOKE HERE
At this point I feel like you didn't even bother reading any posts, considering nobody said any of the things you're trying to claim we did.

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ISIS already is a top priority lol. That's the thing. Obama's already dealt with them and terorists, without doing another insane region destabilizing move like bush did. Bush ran the entire army into the wrong fucking country (yes, iraq had a shitty dictator, but unfortunately so do many places. having a shitty dictator does not make it a good idea to march in an occupy a country. that's just crazy. there are better ways to deal with it. and iraq was not behind 9/11 attacks and there are better methods of nuclear disarmament than taking over a country even if diplomacy fails. We have hackers and special operatives right? We have peaceful ways of dealing with these kinds of conflicts that don't cause colossal debt, loss of life, and even more of an unstable shitshow.). Bush sided with the people who became ISIS now, because he armed them as "rebel fighters" to begin with. Bush turned the region into even more of a shitshow than it already was. If you want to blame someone for ISIS forming, its bush for creating them in the first place, not for Obama pulling troops out of somewhere they had no business being in to begin with. What were you going to do, force iraq to become the next state of America?
so is this one of those "bush did 9/11" posts or

also

Originally posted by leod
At this point I feel like you didn't even bother reading any posts, considering nobody said any of the things you're trying to claim we did.


au contraire

Originally posted by ThePat545
Precisely. ISIS is ruthless and will stop at nothing to kill, kill, kill.

Originally posted by Impetus
ISIS is losing already, anyway

Originally posted by ThePat545
I honestly don't get how literally nobody thinks beating ISIS should be a top priority.
Still not convinced.
What Impetus said there and I already said twice was that beating ISIS would be a top priority no matter who is president.
America is and has been fighting them for quite a while, it's actively happening and every nominee offered a plan for it.

I REALLY don't understand what makes you think Trump is the only one that's going to beat them up.


And no that wasn't a Bush did 9/11 post Impetus made there because a) conspiracy theories are for Alex Jones b) what she said was fact, Bush did create ISIS, yes with the help of Hillary, and Obama has been fighting them for the past few years.
Unless you want to claim that Clinton somehow did this intentionally, I don't see your point.

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I never even implied Trump is the only one who could beat them up for one. Second, he's the only one who will because he's already elected president and nothing is going to change that. It just so happens he's the one who won't hesitate to kill ISIS if he's literally the DIABLO BLANCO DE MUERTE when everyone else is more afraid of the media than terrorists.

I'm not saying Trump is good, but if this butthole is going to be president and we can't change that, might as well accept it and not make it worse by doing these kinds of things. This is appalling and I'm personally hurt that so many people are burning the flag that stands for freedom, that millions of our soldiers were willing to die for and have died for.

If you don't at least acknowledge that I love my country for what it is no matter what, and that everyone else ought to as well, I don't think I can continue debating this subject, especially when it's so close to Veteran's Day of all days.
Oh, I see where the misunderstanding happened.
This right here looked a lot like you were trying to claim that voting Hillary somehow equals putting Trump as worse than ISIS, you know, what with that being the entire topic here:
Originally posted by ThePat545
Let's face it, both Hillary and Trump were absolute pure shit and nobody wanted this election. But it happened and there's nothing we can do. But you know what? As horrible and despicable as him being bigoted is, who do you hate more? Trump or ISIS? ISIS literally shoots and blows innocent people up. Trump isn't going to go to war with Mexico or Syria just because he doesn't like people with darker skin. It's unconstitutional and he sure as hell knows this.


Re-reading the relevant points with that in mind I get what you mean now and it makes a whole lot more sense, even though I don't understand what makes you think protests (which is an important right in America that you really shouldn't be upset about if you like freedom so much) will somehow weaken the fight against ISIS.


And no, sorry, patriotism isn't exactly a thing that I as a german understand. Over here that shit's dangerous, we burned our fingers with that already. There's a reason the part of our anthem that says germany is the best country in the world (with the best beer!) is forbidden from being played.
Honestly seems more like brainless following of the government and glorification of the military more than anything, not to say that I don't respect the hell out of the lives given by your soldiers in the fight against evil.

That being said, they didn't give their lives for some stars and stripes, your country isn't literally inside those pieces of cotton. It's just a really good way to symbolize how done they are with your country's shit.
(To be honest I don't really understand how that's worse than waving around the confederate flag anyway, that's not even your flag?)

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I can see how I've been hypocritical in how I said I didn't like protesting then going right back to talking about freedom. It's our first amendment to be given freedom of speech, and it's a big thing here. I can also see that there are certain things I could have worded better.

And given the context from how you've described how your country works, I can even further understand your point of view as well.

As for the Confederate flag thing, people over here hate that too. It's done mostly in the southern states to basically say "we don't care about how the Civil War ended, we still want slaves, yee-haw" but yeah nobody really likes them here either.




I think I've said all I've felt I wanted to say on this thread, but I wanted to say one more thing. I'd like to say sorry to everyone if I came off as a jerk at any point. I'm honestly not sure if I had offended anyone but if I did, I genuinely apologize.
I have personally made my peace with the results of the election. There isn't anything I could do, anyways, and I feel like words never lead to a change of the mindset of anyone, only actions do, making discussions about politics pretty much pointless in my opinion. I mean, how often have you experienced that after a heated discussion, one of two opposing parties has suddenly agreed with what the other party has said? In my experience, that doesn't happen. It usually takes some kind of major event (positive or negative, usually the latter) before significant changes of mindset happen. And really, these major events are all I'm afraid of.

I only want to say one more thing. As Germans, we have made our experiences with people like Trump, and so far they have always lead to bad times without exceptions. Just take a list of what Trump's goals are and compare them bullet point by bullet point with lists of what certain other people's goals were in the past. You'll be surprised how many perfect matchs you will find. Consindering this, I think it's all but justified to be more than just a little sceptical of Trump.

With that, I think I have said everything I had left to say.

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Feel free to visit my website/blog - it's updated rarely, but it looks pretty cool!
I'm attempting to make peace with it, but it's confirmed one thing to me: American democracy is fundamentally broken and both the DNC and GOP have to go.

I'm going to concentrate on issues at home that will have a huge effect on me. I'll still care about people in the States, but there's nothing I can do about it. But I think there are things I can do for Brexit and other Irish issues rather than discussing them.

Whatever happens, we need to change our perspective and how to deal with things.
tbh it was like a 1℅ difference and the reason the results are like this is because most red states were like 40/60 whereas most blue states were like 80/20. I don't think it's a fundamentally broken system. It takes into account that states vary wildly in mindset and that these variations need to be taken into account despite differences in population densities. The system ensures that city-rich states won't fully determine the outcome and drive the smaller states to have essentially pointless voting power. You've got to remember that the US is a state-based system.

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A system that ensures that Republicans in California will never have a voice and ensures that Democrats in Texas will never have a voice without a huge shift in demographics is fundamentally broken in this day and age. No other democracy, to my knowledge, is like this.

It's a terrible, anti-democratic system. I'm not just saying that because Trump won; if Clinton had lost the popular vote but still ended up winning that'd have been absolutely horrible and undemocratic.

It needs to change; that's clear. Neither the DNC or GOP are worthy political parties for power; they're both horribly corrupt, horribly govern and not representative for anyone who's under 45 years of age.

Voting reform and a changing of the American system should be a top priority. But I fear it will never be.
I definitely think it's worse than a parliamentary system, but it's not horribly broken. It's more meant as a representation of that particular state which takes in mind that different states have different mindsets because they're different groups of people. It's the trouble of having to rule such a large country with so many different cultures.

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Originally posted by Torchkas
tbh it was like a 1℅ difference


But that just makes it even worse. More than half the population actually wanted the other candidate (well, at least half the voting population). In other words, more than half the population are getting a president they didn't want. Remember how the whole point of democracy was to give power to people who act on behalf of the population? Well, now the USA have a president that only acts on behalf of half the population, probably even less.

This is actually why "two thirds" elections exist, which only make the party the winner which gets at least two thirds of all the votes (sometimes forcing multiple parties to form a coalition so there can even be a two thirds majority at all). I feel like this is one of the best election systems possible with democracy, but it isn't used in many places.

Originally posted by Torchkas
The system ensures that city-rich states won't fully determine the outcome and drive the smaller states to have essentially pointless voting power. You've got to remember that the US is a state-based system.


Except they wouldn't really do that, anyways, as demonstrated quite well in this video (I feel like that was already posted here before?). Basically, cities alone don't have nearly the population to influence election results all by themselves.

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Feel free to visit my website/blog - it's updated rarely, but it looks pretty cool!
Well if you really care about numbers it's a 0.4% difference and neither of them have the majority vote.

good article by cracked ironically

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Originally posted by ThePat545
I'm sick and tired of my country being something else's bitch. Everyone looks at us like a joke because we've had ISIS killing innocent people on our own soil and we haven't done shit about it.

You are the only one who thinks that. Did you see the attacks in France and think "France is such a joke"? No one looks at a terrorist attack and thinks "The people who that happened to were weak". That's an incredibly strange thing to say.

Originally posted by ThePat545
Before you say, "America is too economically weak for war," I'll stomp that right now.

I wasn't even thinking about war. Why would I be thinking about war?

Originally posted by ThePat545
If you don't at least acknowledge that I love my country for what it is no matter what, and that everyone else ought to as well, I don't think I can continue debating this subject, especially when it's so close to Veteran's Day of all days.

I'll acknowledge that you do. It seems pretty obvious. That's just a terrible, terrible thing to do. You should never support anything or anyone unconditionally, and a country is only a good thing for as long as it promotes and supports the things that you want it to support. If you support the actions of your government for the sole fact that you were born in the geographical region they lay claim over, you are going to end up supporting terrible things. Rather than supporting your country, you should have certain ideals that you believe to be true and defensible, and you should support the ones trying to make them so. Blind allegiance is about the worst thing one can have.

Originally posted by The Courier
It needs to change; that's clear. Neither the DNC or GOP are worthy political parties for power; they're both horribly corrupt, horribly govern and not representative for anyone who's under 45 years of age.

Voting reform and a changing of the American system should be a top priority. But I fear it will never be.

Unfortunately, they make the rules, so we're not any time soon going to get a system where anyone with seriously differing views can actually be elected. It's why I don't really care about people who are elected, I just care about local laws and such. The people are stuck, but local laws can actually change, thanks to a helpful dose of cognitive dissonance.



Originally posted by Torchkas
I definitely think it's worse than a parliamentary system, but it's not horribly broken. It's more meant as a representation of that particular state which takes in mind that different states have different mindsets because they're different groups of people. It's the trouble of having to rule such a large country with so many different cultures.

It's pretty broken. Both the winner-take-all nature that the different states enforce as well as the first-past-the-post system work to mathematically limit the number of choices people have. Of course, just using popular vote is equally broken (More broken, perhaps?). Having instead a representative distribution of electors, elected in a run-off-vote system, would greatly increase the breadth of the political landscape, and more competition is pretty much always a good thing, while still allowing for the less populated areas to have some say in how things go.

Also: Just kinda get rid of the president? Doesn't make a ton of sense to me to concentrate that much power into one person, when the same function could be just as easily handled by a representative body that would more accurately reflect the will of the people, instead of just giving a big middle finger to 50% of the population every 4 years. Humans seem to be stuck on this idea of a single leader, and it's very strange to me.
President Trump: How & Why...

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That video makes the valid point of "not everyone on the right is a bigot", but I feel like it kind of misses the point that Trump isn't really a normal republican candidate and his views should really not be considered valid when blaming the entire left.
The only left part I can agree with blaming is Clinton for forcing her way through the election with shady shit when she's clearly not who people wanted, other than that not really. The right are people too, not animals, obviously they're to "blame" for voting their candidate.

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Yo wtf did you guys hear trump is running for president? he better not win smh

Currently: Bringing back the footer I had in 2013.
The point of that video and all the videos/essays/angry facebook rants like it is that they're trying to get people to realize that they spent so much time sticking their noses up at people willing to listen to Trump, calling them racist, sexist, homophobic, all that stuff, that in doing so they created a culture where Hillary's side was inaccessible to anybody that questioned her legitimacy. In the year leading up to this election, I haven't heard a single positive attribute that she could bring to this country. I tried turning to articles and television to help me understand, but they all just said the exact same thing, "well she's better than Trump!", without any sort of explanation as to why. I guess the idea was that being a racist sexist pig is worse than whatever she did to be under investigation by the FBI. In the year of 2016, a bigot president does not scare me, because we live in a world where nobody is going to let that shit fly. Hell these protests that have been happening have been to show the world that modern America does not stand for the hateful things Trump says and stands for. Fuck that guy, he doesn't speak for anybody but himself, and people are going to make damn sure that's understood.

and I mean yeah, of course lower to middle class people voted for Trump. He promised them economic growth, he said he would kick out illegal immigrants they perceive to be stealing their jobs. Do you think the single mother of 2 trying to feed her children on $1600 a month gives a flying fuck if Donald Trump makes an inappropriate remark? Hillary called them and everybody they associate with a deplorable. Like, just put yourself in their shoes. Who would you vote for, the person that shows no sympathy or respect to the situation you didn't choose to be in, the person that goes on TV and calls you and everybody you know "shockingly bad in quality"? Or the racist, sexist, overall dishonorable human being that still has your best interests in mind.
I had a long conversation about this topic, and I understand that yes Trump supporters are, inadvertently or not, supporting a racist/sexist/etc America by validating a man with racist/sexist/etc ideologies, but writing it off as bigots seizing their opportunity to gentrify America is a disgusting generalization we really don't need right now.
e:to clarify im not advocating for trump, in case that wasn't clear. my stance is reactionary to the fact he's in power, if he lost as he should've (to my main man Gary Johnson), then I wouldn't even feel obligated to talk about this. But since we have to deal with him, it just makes more sense to try to be positive about the whole situation. I genuinely believe that people will not stand for any of his hateful ideas or speeches.
(but while we're sharing videos,)

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