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OW Ideas
Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Old Contests & Events - The 10th Annual Vanilla Level Design Contest - OW Ideas
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Link - Thread Closed
A collab means working with people you don't want to, having only a select few, assigned, things to contribute to instead of the great whole, and kills the excitement that stems from the competition aspect.

However, the big con of a contest is dedicating a lot more effort in very limited time, and now there will probably be two ROM's to make maps for.

So yeah, I'm sitting on the fence for this one.
Originally posted by Prizm
Any complaints about both overworld being a contest and asm being allowed in this overworld contest directly translates to: "I don't want to compete because other people are willing to put in more effort than I am to make a really good contest entry, and I don't like that". And no matter which way you cut it, that's just a poor argument all around.

I assure you my lack of ability has nothing to do with how much effort I'm willing to put in. Although that's just how contests are in general so it's not like I can complain.

I'm not to thrilled about a collab either though, I was just questioning it
Originally posted by Prizm
Any complaints about both overworld being a contest and asm being allowed in this overworld contest directly translates to: "I don't want to compete because other people are willing to put in more effort than I am to make a really good contest entry, and I don't like that".


Prizm, don't put words in my mouth, or anyone else's.
Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
This opinion might make sense for, say, the pure vanilla contest, where all the levels look like regular smw with default palettes. But most levels in this contest go above and beyond, and a few of them look so completely un vanilla with how much their designers stretched the meaning of vanilla, is it maybe fitting for the overworld to do the same?


All the not-valilla-ness was through editing tricks. There's no issues with using editing tricks to give the illusion of not-vanilla.

Looking non-vanilla and being non-vanilla are two entirely different things, and are very different.

If there was no distinction between vanilla and not-vanilla (chocolate), this contest wouldn't exist

tl;dr bad argument.

Also, I do want to see a non-ASM vanilla OW, but... I'm in the minority, so... yeah.


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Want to see my Super Mario Timeline?
I think he's talking about this when

Originally posted by VLDC9 description
the point of this collab is showing off the individual levels

I mean, I personally don't mind an overworld that looks really nice of all things (that is the purpose of an overworld contest, after all, and I did enjoy VLDC9's overworld) but I at least respect the opinions against ASM considering that it is a vanilla contest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Originally posted by natnew
Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
This opinion might make sense for, say, the pure vanilla contest, where all the levels look like regular smw with default palettes. But most levels in this contest go above and beyond, and a few of them look so completely un vanilla with how much their designers stretched the meaning of vanilla, is it maybe fitting for the overworld to do the same?


All the not-valilla-ness was through editing tricks. There's no issues with using editing tricks to give the illusion of not-vanilla.

Looking non-vanilla and being non-vanilla are two entirely different things, and are very different.

If there was no distinction between vanilla and not-vanilla (chocolate), this contest wouldn't exist

tl;dr bad argument.

Also, I do want to see a non-ASM vanilla OW, but... I'm in the minority, so... yeah.


You didn't actually address my point. Of course there's an actual, real difference between chocolate and vanilla-like levels that barely look vanilla. However, going by looks alone, many vldc levels are flashy and extravagant enough to fit in perfectly with the atmosphere and aesthetics that the vldc9 overworld displays. The purpose of the VLDC is not to restrict ourselves as much as possible and make levels super vanilla to stick with the "theme". In fact, the "vanilla" aspect of the contests encourages insane creativity that would never be seen in a chocolate contest or in a regular user's regular old hack. How?? The nature of the contest, the restrictive aspect of it, places everyone on a (somewhat) even playing field, being that you don't need to be experienced in ASM at all to win. The highly competitive and popular nature of the contest also brings out people's best. What does this have to do with the overworld? Play some of the top levels in vldcx, and then play a level from "vanilla twist" or "return to Dinosaur Land", and you will notice quite a difference. So why do people want an overworld that would match hacks like those, instead of a collab that pushes the boundaries of design and aesthetic creativity more and more every year?

Also, let's not forget that, while VLDCX is a "vanilla" contest, the overworld contest is an entirely separate contest and was never stated in the history of ever that it had to be vanilla. However, if you'll notice by looking at the VLDC9 overworld and then maybe playing a handful of the levels, maybe you will realize they don't clash that at all! The users who put together the VLDC9 overworld kept in mind the fact that the VLDC is a vanilla contest, and designed the overworld accordingly. It has this fanciful ASM and sprite work, but the actual tiles are mostly regular smw. It's almost like the VLDC levels themselves, with absolutely insane gimmicks and level design, beautiful aesthetics, etc, to the point that the levels barely feel like SMW anymore. Yet, you know it's still SMW because there's a strong hint of SMW in it, since it's all vanilla.

Now, the creators of the overworld have to be very discerning when they make an overworld, because it still has to fit with the style of the contest, since yes, the point of the contest is the levels. But I don't think the makers of the overworld had it in their minds that people would just trek through the OW, go "oooh that's pretty", and then close the ROM without playing an entry. In fact, the designers of the VLDC9 overworld actually designed with the entries in mind, and they enhanced the experience of playing the levels.

Also, looking non-vanilla and being non-vanilla aren't quite as different as you think they are, and that's because you're focusing too much on semantics and lingo. The JUMP collab feels more vanilla than many of the levels in the VLDC9 collab, even though that hack has more ASM than almost any hack. I can design a level or overworld that uses chocolate resources that gives off a very vanilla, smw feel. On the other hand, creative uses of what is given within smw can be used to create things that feel very un-smw.

EDIT: This isn't really addressed to you specifically, but towards the opinions that have been brought up.
My main problem with your post:

Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
In fact, the "vanilla" aspect of the contests encourages insane creativity that would never be seen in a chocolate contest or in a regular user's regular old hack. How?? The nature of the contest, the restrictive aspect of it, places everyone on a (somewhat) even playing field, being that you don't need to be experienced in ASM at all to win. The highly competitive and popular nature of the contest also brings out people's best.


Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
It's almost like the VLDC levels themselves, with absolutely insane gimmicks and level design, beautiful aesthetics, etc, to the point that the levels barely feel like SMW anymore.


Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
On the other hand, creative uses of what is given within smw can be used to create things that feel very un-smw.


You imply that this applies to the levels, but it does not apply to the overworld. That makes no sense. If the levels don't need ASM to not feel vanilla, then the OW shouldn't be any different.

My point: The OW can be designed just fine without ASM, so there's no need for it, especially since...

Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
the "vanilla" aspect of the contests encourages insane creativity that would never be seen in a chocolate contest or in a regular user's regular old hack.


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Want to see my Super Mario Timeline?
If you think the OW can be done without ASM, then nice! This shouldn't be a restriction in the overworld contest though.

You can always vote for maps that don't use ASM and that you feel that would suit the hack best when the voting starts. The overworld contest is a separate contest and never followed the same restrictions as the level design contest since it's become a thing in VLDC7, and putting any restriction now would suck, especially for who's looking for making a map even better than VLDC9's.


It's how I, and probably the majority feel about this.
Originally posted by Mirann
You can always vote for maps that don't use ASM and that you feel that would suit the hack best when the voting starts.


Why do that when you already know that everybody is just gonna gravitate towards le grande ASM showcase overworlds? Its a wasted vote.

Originally posted by Mirann
The overworld contest is a separate contest and never followed the same restrictions as the level design contest


I honestly don't know why this is the case. If the judges encourage creative use of vanilla assets with the levels, then why doesn't this apply to the overworld contest as well since its literally gonna be a part of the same thing? Its silly to me.

Originally posted by Mirann
putting any restriction now would suck, especially for who's looking for making a map even better than VLDC9's.


I will admit, it would be strange and out of place, and I'm not necessarily wanting a mostly vanilla overworld for this contest, but in the future I would like to see more creativity in the vanilla field, because I feel like more could be done than people think.

Originally posted by Mirann
It's how I, and probably the majority feel about this.


I don't doubt that, but its very frustrating when users drown people like me and natnew out because the majority disagrees. What's the point of even presenting ideas when they're just labelled as an "irrelevant opinion?"
Originally posted by Decoy Blimp
le grande ASM showcase
The asm had nothing to do with my personal enjoyment of VLDC9's overworlds. I went back and looked at the other submissions, and you're actually lying to yourself if you say that the OW team's submissions were not clearly the best ones, regardless of any sprites they included. (the colours were actually their strongest attributes for me, personally).
If asm is such an issue, why not restrict OW sprites to after the contest or whatever. If somebody else wins a sublevel, then they collaborate with the OW spriters to design what sprites can be used where.

I understand and agree with the sentiment that a Vanilla contest should have a vanilla overworld, but with the amount of boring/mediocre levels that player will have to slog through to get to world X, I like have a creative, unique overworld to cut down on the monotony a bit. Imagine how boring 100%ing VLDC9 would've been if all the levels were on an uneventful, flat, vanilla overworld. It'd suck any enjoyment out of the experience you'd otherwise have.

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Originally posted by Decoy Blimp
Why do that when you already know that everybody is just gonna gravitate towards le grande ASM showcase overworlds?

If you already know that's how everyone feels about the matter then there's not much point to keep bringing this up, don't you think?

Quote
I will admit, it would be strange and out of place, and I'm not necessarily wanting a mostly vanilla overworld for this contest, but in the future I would like to see more creativity in the vanilla field, because I feel like more could be done than people think.

Actually no, because there aren't many vanilla tiles to use and transform (in VLDC ways) that'd fit into an overworld, much unlike for levels, where you have a much greater selection.

Also:

Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
The users who put together the VLDC9 overworld kept in mind the fact that the VLDC is a vanilla contest, and designed the overworld accordingly. It has this fanciful ASM and sprite work, but the actual tiles are mostly regular smw. It's almost like the VLDC levels themselves, with absolutely insane gimmicks and level design, beautiful aesthetics, etc, to the point that the levels barely feel like SMW anymore. Yet, you know it's still SMW because there's a strong hint of SMW in it, since it's all vanilla.

(...)

In fact, the designers of the VLDC9 overworld actually designed with the entries in mind, and they enhanced the experience of playing the levels.

This is all true, and honestly, I don't see any other way working as well as this one.
Originally posted by Hobz
you're actually lying to yourself if you say that the OW team's submissions were not clearly the best ones, regardless of any sprites they included. (the colours were actually their strongest attributes for me, personally).


Oh don't get me wrong, the overworld maps were breathtaking, but given that it was for the VLDC it seemed out of place. I also do agree that the colors were very nice too.

Originally posted by Hobz
with the amount of boring/mediocre levels that player will have to slog through to get to world X, I like have a creative, unique overworld to cut down on the monotony a bit. Imagine how boring 100%ing VLDC9 would've been if all the levels were on an uneventful, flat, vanilla overworld. It'd suck any enjoyment out of the experience you'd otherwise have.


No one was insinuating that we use lame flat vanilla maps. Besides, have you even looked at the VLDC7 maps? With the exception of the best world, all of that is vanilla, and honestly its all very good looking. We could EASILY go with that kind of overworld design and still make it look breathtaking by modern standards (i.e. colorful maps and such).

Originally posted by Gloomier
If you already know that's how everyone feels about the matter then there's not much point to keep bringing this up, don't you think?


I guess you're right.

Originally posted by Gloomier
because there aren't many vanilla tiles to use and transform (in VLDC ways) that'd fit into an overworld, much unlike for levels, where you have a much greater selection.


There aren't many, but that's not to say you can still be incredibly creative with what you already have (again, see VLDC7 maps).

Originally posted by Gloomier
This is all true, and honestly, I don't see any other way working as well as this one.


Gbreeze isn't entirely wrong, but this is a vailla contest, so in my opinion ASM shouldn't come anywhere near it unless its necessary (i.e. patches and shit to make the hack actually functional).
You guys actually bring up some good points. But just to echo what Gloomier said, it's way harder, almost impossible, to manipulate vanilla smw gfx in the overworld in the same way you can in the levels themselves. When it comes to levels, the possibilities are literally endless (and anyone who wants to tell you that the vanilla ideas are all "used up" is fooling themselves). However, when it comes to designing an overworld with vanilla tiles, there isn't much you can do. Now, I'm not a very good ow designer so it would be interesting to hear someone who can actually make overworlds, like Koopster. But I'll guessing they would say the same.
Originally posted by Gbreeze
it's way harder, almost impossible, to manipulate vanilla smw gfx in the overworld in the same way you can in the levels themselves.


Originally posted by Gbreeze
when it comes to designing an overworld with vanilla tiles, there isn't much you can do.


You are absolutely right in that its harder to manipulate the overworld graphics like you can with the level graphics, but at the same time, its that kind of attitude that keeps people from actually trying.
Originally posted by Decoy Blimp
Originally posted by Mirann
You can always vote for maps that don't use ASM and that you feel that would suit the hack best when the voting starts.


Why do that when you already know that everybody is just gonna gravitate towards le grande ASM showcase overworlds? Its a wasted vote.

Because it's what most people find impressive when done well? Restricting custom resources in the overworld contest so that the (group of) people who can pull off amazing stuff are forced to work with limitations that didn't exist before because the others can't/aren't as good is unfair.

Originally posted by Decoy Blimp
Originally posted by Mirann
It's how I, and probably the majority feel about this.


I don't doubt that, but its very frustrating when users drown people like me and natnew out because the majority disagrees. What's the point of even presenting ideas when they're just labelled as an "irrelevant opinion?"

I never said your opinion was irrelevant, but I apologize if that's the impression you got. I'm one of the people that wants to see something even more amazing than last year's map though, and we'd be sad if this didn't happen because custom resources "need" to be disallowed.
Originally posted by Decoy Blimp
Gbreeze isn't entirely wrong, but this is a vailla contest, so in my opinion ASM shouldn't come anywhere near it unless its necessary (i.e. patches and shit to make the hack actually functional).


Right, the vanilla contest will be free from ASM unless it's SA-1, necessary, or bug fixes.

But the overworld is not a vanilla contest. That's the crux of the matter.
Originally posted by Decoy Blimp
have you even looked at the VLDC7 maps?
Yeah, and I didn't finish VLDC7 for the exact reason I mentioned; they did nothing to alleviate the tedium of completing the actual levels, and I couldn't get invested in it because it was just a whole lot of nothing interesting happening. Same as VLDC8.

I know the idea is that the overworld is only intended to be a coherent path from level to level, but in a collab with no clear progressive curve (both in difficulty, style, and substance), the overworld alone does not work as a justifiable means of connecting each level. Instead, it has to be treated as its own entity. It no longer serves to connect each level coherently, but as a way to keep the journey from point A to point B interesting for the player. That's why the VLDC9 overworld worked so well. The levels were all very close together, and there was always at least 1 interesting thing on screen when walking through it.

--------------------
Originally posted by Mirann
Because it's what most people find impressive when done well? Restricting custom resources in the overworld contest so that the (group of) people who can pull off amazing stuff are forced to work with limitations that didn't exist before because the others can't/aren't as good is unfair.


Again, you're not wrong, but this really isn't the place for showing off all you can do with ASM, or at least that's what I think. Why don't we just host more ASM contests or something? That way people can show off what they do without it being a massive contradiction to the project they're contributing to.

Originally posted by Mirann
I never said your opinion was irrelevant, but I apologize if that's the impression you got.


Oops, I wasn't implying that you gave me that impression. I said that because a certain deputy said those exact words earlier in this thread.

Originally posted by Mirann
I'm one of the people that wants to see something even more amazing than last year's map though, and we'd be sad if this didn't happen because custom resources "need" to be disallowed.


And again, I agree that it wouldn't be fitting for this contest in particular, but why not encourage people to actually try to use everything they can in future contests?

Originally posted by Noivern
But the overworld is not a vanilla contest.


I agree that this is where it gets tricky, because rather than doing overworld contests on their own, we do them in tandem with the VLDC. This is why I suggested that more ASM contests and the like would be beneficial.

Originally posted by Hobz
Yeah, and I didn't finish VLDC7 for the exact reason I mentioned; they did nothing to alleviate the tedium of completing the actual levels, and I couldn't get invested in it because it was just a whole lot of nothing interesting happening. Same as VLDC8.


You're certainly not wrong about that, but you have to keep in mind that this was the first time that we did a collaboration rather than stand-alone levels, so the quality wasn't gonna be top tier. Can't say I agree with you about VLDC8, however. That one was immensely better than VLDC7, and the only thing stopping me from completing it was variety path the fact that I was playing it on my hijacked Wii and there were some levels I simply couldn't complete.

Originally posted by Hobz
I know the idea is that the overworld is only intended to be a coherent path from level to level, but in a collab with no clear progressive curve (both in difficulty, style, and substance), the overworld alone does not work as a justifiable means of connecting each level. Instead, it has to be treated as its own entity. It no longer serves to connect each level coherently, but as a way to keep the journey from point A to point B interesting for the player. That's why the VLDC9 overworld worked so well. The levels were all very close together, and there was always at least 1 interesting thing on screen when walking through it.


And you're absolutely right, VLDC9's overworld did keep things interesting, but again... well, you know what I'm gonna say by now.

Welp. I could keep going but I think I'll stop here. Look, I don't have that much of an issue with fancy ASM overworlds, if anything, I'm very much looking forward to this year's overworld and I'm hoping its even better than the last, but I was just expressing that I thought it was odd that a contest that's purely about doing everything you can with the original assets have overworlds that in some aspects are quite the opposite.
TBH the VLDC overworld contest is the only one where it's going to be worth submitting an entry with ASM anyway, in a separate overworld contest, all the work would go to waste by default unless you decided to build a hack out of it after, but for VLDC you're actually competing for something special you know?
In that regard, it would make more sense to have an extra vanilla overworld contest or something like that if there really was that much demand for it, rather than limit what can be done for vldc's overworld
Originally posted by Impetus
TBH the VLDC overworld contest is the only one where it's going to be worth submitting an entry with ASM anyway, in a separate overworld contest, all the work would go to waste by default unless you decided to build a hack out of it after, but for VLDC you're actually competing for something special you know?
In that regard, it would make more sense to have an extra vanilla overworld contest or something like that if there really was that much demand for it, rather than limit what can be done for vldc's overworld


That's actually a really good argument.

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Want to see my Super Mario Timeline?
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