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I feel like SMW hacking is bogging SNES homebrew down
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - I feel like SMW hacking is bogging SNES homebrew down
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 » Thread Closed
Originally posted by Post Pana Pics

A linked list proper is right out because SMW stores sprites interleaved in memory. You can extend the concept, with a few wrinkles, to an array of sprite indices or something though.

A bigger issue is that a number of things depend on sprite processing order in a weird way, like the behavior of enemies killed by shells. So you can't just totally willy-nilly change the processing order. But I'm not sure how big of a deal this is to non-speedrunners.

Additionally, sprites can just kill themselves and others without telling anybody and they don't really have to call a routine for it or anything, so you might end up with some kinks regarding sprite spawning/despawning. In particular a sprite that kills itself and the next sprite on the priority list on the same frame should probably work.


I'm talking about OAM sprites.

Originally posted by Post Pana Pics

Most sprites have separate drawing routines but in practice they mostly just plop a bunch of tiles into the OAM in a nice contiguous block (with a few exceptions that a priority thing would probably want to change anyway). So even though you can't nicely extract a graphics routine from most of them it's not really a huge impediment.


Other's have said that SMW's OAM isn't done in a nice contiguous block, but arrange in fixed sized slots, and NMSTL patch is slow because it's a fragmentation nightmare.

Originally posted by Post Pana Pics

I don't know exactly what you'd want this for in SMW though. Better climbing net sprites? There aren't many priority tricks to be had in SMW and most of the good ones you can do by having one sprite draw its own tiles in priority order. It's not like it's top-down.


To get rid of the slowdown caused by the non-contiguous OAM.
Do you want proof that smwcentral is bogging SNES homebrew down? Is this:

https://www.smwcentral.net/?p=viewthread&t=91705&page=5

Do you guys understand that I am experiencing burnout and it would be really hard for me to just stop what I'm doing and memorize SMW's source code.
Originally posted by Drex
it would be really hard for me to just stop what I'm doing and memorize SMW's source code.

I don't think you understand—not a single person is asking you to do this. Not a single one. All you've done is harp on SMW romhacking as if it's the devil itself and "linking" to that thread is doing nothing to further your point. Why are you making such a big fuss about this? All the time you've dedicated to complaining about SMW romhacking and how limited SMW's engine is could have very easily been spent doing something productive like working on a project of yours. You're genuinely wasting your own time with this. You've got nobody else to blame.
Sheesh, I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of robots.
Originally posted by Drex
Sheesh, I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of robots.

You should take heed to what Veck said. Additionally, you need to have evidence to suggest that if SMW hacking is boggling down people from doing homebrew, which so far in your history, it's lacking. Don't make claims that you cannot back up.

BTW, people are free to pursue whatever medium they wish to create their experiences. Who are you to suggest that people who hack SMW are the cause of SNES homebrew being boggled down?

--------------------
https://www.change.org/petitions/google-change-the-youtube-comment-section-back-to-its-original-form




[19:43] <StrikeForcer> I also want to say that "because everything on the internet is definitely true!" is a derailment tactic that serves as a shorthand change for "I dont accept the facts"

[19:44] <StrikeForcer> When the information posted clearly is fact-based.
Originally posted by Drex
Sheesh, I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of robots.

I guess that's not too bad, then. At least we're able to make arguments without constantly resorting to the same old talking points that have been refuted each time they're brought up. I'm not even saying this to be insulting, but again you're wasting your own time here. You're arguing with a brick wall, not because nobody is listening to what you're saying but because there is nothing to be heard.
This isn't meant to be a philosophy class debate. I don't need to explain every opinion I have in great detail.
Then not only are you wasting your time - you're wasting our time.
No, because now you guys know what actually IS possible on the SNES, so you no longer have to worry about slowdown.
I don't think anybody cares about slowdown in SMW as much as you.
Originally posted by leod
I don't think anybody cares about slowdown in SMW as much as you.


It's because of Sega fanboys always complaining that the SNES is too slow.
Originally posted by Drex
It's because of Sega fanboys always complaining that the SNES is too slow.

Why do you care? This isn't the 90s anymore.
Trust me Drex, I also care a lot about slowdown and bad SNES quirks just like you. I really do, to the point that I abandoned a project because of the way certain things were made in our dear console. But making such a fuss about it helps literally nobody involved in this discussion. Take a deep breath, and try to realize that this is far from being the most important thing that could be argued about.
Originally posted by Mathos
Trust me Drex, I also care a lot about slowdown and bad SNES quirks just like you. I really do, to the point that I abandoned a project because of the way certain things were made in our dear console. But making such a fuss about it helps literally nobody involved in this discussion. Take a deep breath, and try to realize that this is far from being the most important thing that could be argued about.


What kind of projects did you work on?
Originally posted by Drex
What kind of projects did you work on?

This.

Development was ended when I ran several tests to ensure some of the ideas I had on paper were doable. Turned out SMW's engine did not really like the stuff I wanted to try, most notably for bosses (which were to be at the center of the game), while homebrewing allowed it. It was frustrating, to say the least.
There was also behind-the-scenes talks about how to handle certain systems, like dialogues: I wanted to code (and had begun coding) something à la Seiken Densetsu 3, but SMW's tiny VRAM made it so that there was just no room for even 32 x 2 x 6 = 384 extra 8x8 tiles.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Anyway, once all of these problems were deemed unsolvable, the project sunk. It did not die though: all the files are intact, the script is still here, and I began tackling GBA homebrewing (effectively setting up a development environment, and running my first programs in Visual Boy Advance) a week ago after thinking about it again.

But despite all that, I still hack SMW "normally". And I still do ASM (even if lately I found myself quite unable to do so for various reasons I won't write down here). And I still enjoy hacking. I'm saying all this to make you understand that the homebrewer's world and the average hacker's are not hurting each other that much. For me at least, realizing how flawed the SNES is through hacking made me interested in homebrewing much more than anything. Quite the opposite of your very first claim, in fact.

If you want my personal opinion, hacking doesn't hurt homebrewing at all. I'd even say it's more of a good transition to it in a way.
Yeah, honestly, I think this thread is turning less like what the thread title is supposed to mean and more like Drex trying to know more about the SMW engine and it's quirks while everyone is taking the thread title too seriously when the point of it already stopped. Heck, I can see that even Drex doesn't care about this thread enough due to the constant topic changing and repetition of arguments (which btw I experience a lot with family arguments, so I know when someone doesn't want to talk about something), so I dunno why is everyone doing in this thread anyways.

Honestly tho, I only really care about the music side of the SNES and I'm only really here for the novelty of having my music be in a game (let alone a game system as renowed as the SNES and a game as renowed as SMW), along with other reasons, but I do think that the efforts done by the SMW community are very admirable, even if the driver used to insert songs in SMW could be better (props for the people here in actually adding so many stuff to the driver tho) and that SMW's code is a tad too crappy from what I heard. SMW might not be the best SNES game ever and it's engine may be very subpar, but I still do enjoy everyone here and their attempt of actually trying to make something good with it (tho I'd rather have a sound driver similar to Ocean's or even Square's if I want to make much better SNES music lol). That's my thoughts on the matter at least.

Sorry if this doesn't tell much btw lmao

And yeah, like Mathos said, I don't think SMW hacking really is making SNES homebrew less popular; in fact, I think it might be making it even MORE popular, so
Layout by Mathos
Originally posted by Mathos
If you want my personal opinion, hacking doesn't hurt homebrewing at all. I'd even say it's more of a good transition to it in a way.

this. i dont think i would have ever touched snes homebrew had i not initially done asm for smw hacking. i even decided to make one of my smw hacks as a homebrew (little progress atm though). obviously, homebrew is not for everyone, but its definitely a viable path for those looking to get more out of the snes than what can be reasonably done with smw. those people know who they are, or they will know, so its not necessary to shove them over. let nature take its course

additionally, with regards to slowdown problems or whatever, its not like our progress stagnates. we are constantly looking for ways to improve various aspects of smw hacking. talented individuals will go ahead and roll out code and etc that benefits everything. i could give numerous examples but im lazy. the point is, progress is everpresent, and slowdown issues are not left unnoticed.

etc

--------------------
僕の日本語を失礼します。
I think I can make a sprite priority ordering code first, and then try to get smw to work with it. It would need two "oams" so I need to see if there is any blank space in the RAM map.

EDIT:

Scratch that idea. I found out there is 11kB of unused RAM in SMW. I can just have 8 sprite tables with different priorities, and block move them into one.
question: how long have you been beating this drum and had nobody care and blamed everybody else for not caring, from what i hear you have an old account here from like 2010 or something


also legit why do you think that sprite priority is causing any slowdown, im just, i dont get where the hell you drew that link from

you said, after eliding most of the content of my last post, that this is to
Quote
get rid of the slowdown caused by the non-contiguous OAM.
but vanilla SMW doesn't do any sprite priority stuff of note, it just pre-assigns oam slots to sprite slots (btw you should definitely learn how people around here use words or youre going to be talking nonsense to us); the reason we use NSTL is because it runs out of oam slots, not time. the only sprites im aware of with any priority needs are the net koopas and they arent exactly notorious slowdown beasts

im assuming you got the thing about non-contiguous OAM from my post on the NSTL patch, but thats because the NSTL has to allocate tiles, not order them; if youre just ordering them you can treat them as contiguous since having an extra off-screen tile in the middle of your list isn't going to affect the priority literally at all

moreover, you absolute chumpo idiot, i personally have already written a patch that makes the NSTL allocation linear-time, and i didn't need to make 8 oam mirrors to do it, and didnt inexplicably tie oam allocation to creating an oam priority thing
Originally posted by Katrina

question: how long have you been beating this drum and had nobody care and blamed everybody else for not caring, from what i hear you have an old account here from like 2010 or something


If you don't care, why does it matter if I had an account from 2010 or not?

Originally posted by Katrina

Also legit why do you think that sprite priority is causing any slowdown, im just, i dont get where the hell you drew that link from.


I never said that. It's just something you have to consider when you're changing the OAM allocation.

Originally posted by Katrina

moreover, you absolute chumpo idiot, i personally have already written a patch that makes the NSTL allocation linear-time, and i didn't need to make 8 oam mirrors to do it, and didnt inexplicably tie oam allocation to creating an oam priority thing.


What do you mean? You can't change the allocation without the priority changing as a result. The sPPU always places lower numbered sprites on top of higher numbered sprites.
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