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ASM needs to be more accessible to make hacks more varied
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - ASM needs to be more accessible to make hacks more varied
Pages: « 1 2 3 » Link
How would you rather hack SMW?
Votes: 17 23.6%
Votes: 6 8.3%
Votes: 49 68.1%
Total voters: 72
Yeah, as a player and someone with no personal need for it to be easier, I just notice how so. many. hacks. re-use other peoples' ASM because it's so much easier to add premade stuff than to make it yourself. I feel as though this highly damages the creativity of ROM hacks and makes them feel a little samey to each other. Ik know that there is limited processor overhead with ASM but this problem still bothers me. Thoughts?
i agree..
though i think with Blockreator (and the Ram map) you can do A LOT without needing to know much about asm.
ultimately, the uniqueness of a hack lies entirely on its author, and how they use the tools we provide. a hammer bro sprite does not need to be a hammer bro.

also, asm is programming, and programming is not for everyone, no matter how accessible.

while i agree with your sentiment, asm only serves a limited purpose (thats assuming you ever go outside of smw), so even someone who is very dedicated to learning or whatever may lose motivation.

that said, just a little knowledge can get you far. and i believe there is sufficient material, tutorials, and helpful people on this website to be able to assist those looking for the knowledge. (though a little more wouldnt hurt)
Originally posted by Ladida
also, asm is programming, and programming is not for everyone, no matter how accessible.

This is pretty much the only real answer to the original question. Programming is an adquired skill and it's certainly not a very significant portion of the site that dominates it well enough to make an entire hack with 100% custom ASM.

Besides, with the huge amount of resources there's still a lot of room for variety with proper mixing of ideas, in my opinion.
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You are heavily underestimating how complex the concept of programming in of itself is.

I do wish there was a way to soften up the barrier of entry so newbies who are willing to learn ASM weren't as afraid of tackling it, but...

Originally posted by Ladida
ultimately, the uniqueness of a hack lies entirely on its author, and how they use the tools we provide.

Also this.

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HackPortsASM"Uploader"

OP, have you seen YUMP?

Everything in that game is vanilla and it pushes the engine to its limits. It's really a sight to behold. Even 20+ years after the release of the original game, we were still able to do things nobody had ever seen before with just vanilla resources. Even though it presents itself as a total joke, some of the best levels I've ever seen are in there (albeit, along with some of the worst.)

You can see innovations in vanilla gameplay in the past as well, such as VIP 1 and (some parts of) the VLDCs.

The fact that we could create vanilla games like these, but haven't created anything as limitation-pushing using our custom resources, is a travestyproof that there's still lots to do with them.

Why haven't we seen hacks that exploit bizarre glitches and item interactions with any of the (checks quickly) 522 sprites in our database? Why are they always used as basic obstacles instead of vital elements to a sequence or puzzle? Why haven't I ever even SEEN most of these sprites in action?

It's lack of author imagination. There is so much untapped potential in there. We have to use it.

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lolyump. It's a little funny (and sad?) that one of our most boundary-pushing hacks is also ironic

But yes, what others said is correct. The problem roots more on this site's culture of trying to "recreate Nintendo", which boils down to hacks that try (and emphasis on try) to be nothing but an alternative Super Mario World. I won't blame it on the people who want to make that kind of stuff - and I guess they have an audience...? -, but I do suspect it's for not being courageous enough to try to go beyond that and create something new.
Originally posted by 1337doom
The fact that we could create vanilla games like these, but haven't created anything as limitation-pushing using our custom resources, is a travestyproof that there's still lots to do with them.

Why haven't we seen hacks that exploit bizarre glitches and item interactions with any of the (checks quickly) 522 sprites in our database? Why are they always used as basic obstacles instead of vital elements to a sequence or puzzle? Why haven't I ever even SEEN most of these sprites in action?

It's lack of author imagination. There is so much untapped potential in there. We have to use it.

Originally posted by Koopster
The problem roots more on this site's culture of trying to "recreate Nintendo", which boils down to hacks that try (and emphasis on try) to be nothing but an alternative Super Mario World. I won't blame it on the people who want to make that kind of stuff - and I guess they have an audience...? -, but I do suspect it's for not being courageous enough to try to go beyond that and create something new.

Friendly reminder that both me and gbreeze called this out before but we just got yelled at

I just play Japanese and JUMP-esque, level design focused hacks for the most part because of this lol

The site's constant obsession with bandwagon hopping/trend following (previously it was "try to be brutal mario without knowing any asm whatsoever", now its "look as fancy as a high ranking vldc level but without any of the good level design that makes it score that high") doesn't help either

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HackPortsASM"Uploader"

We have lots of ASM stuff in our sections, most of them are quite easy to use for newbies, so I wouldn't say that it isn't accesible.

Quote
and I guess they have an audience...?


I can tell that there's audience for "Nintendo design" or whatever you call it, me being an individual who wants to see that kind of stuff and aims to make that kind of levels whenever I get a solid base to work in :P

Assuming I finish my powerups patch someday LOL
You can make full source code of the game, as simple and commented as possible, so that everyone understands what and where lies.

After I was hacking another game for a very long time through the source code, (and so the game could be easily edited as you like), it is a bit strange to see you are fine without it.

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With best wishes,
Narcologer
Originally posted by Narcologer
so that everyone understands what and where lies

Source code is programming, and programming is not for everyone, no matter how well commented.

It does help those who can grasp the relevant concepts, but that's far from everyone. And even if it was, ideas aren't infinite.

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<blm> zsnes users are the flatearthers of emulation
Originally posted by Narcologer
You can make full source code of the game, as simple and commented as possible, so that everyone understands what and where lies.

After I was hacking another game for a very long time through the source code, (and so the game could be easily edited as you like), it is a bit strange to see you are fine without it.

But who said we don't? It's right here.

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Your layout has been removed.
Tangential, but I do feel programming is something everyone should learn in some form. Not saying it's easy, but neither is literacy; we spend several years of children's education teaching reading and writing, and still some slip through the cracks. Yet it's incredibly useful in the modern day.

I see people struggle with very basic problems (like, say, batch processing images from one format to another, or auto filling out forms) because they don't know how to make simple scripts. Then they get exploitative malware filled programs to do it for them. :| It's one of those things that people don't understand how much time and effort they're wasting and how much they're relying on black boxes they don't understand until they don't have to do it anymore.

[/tangent]
Originally posted by leod
Originally posted by Narcologer
You can make full source code of the game, as simple and commented as possible, so that everyone understands what and where lies.

After I was hacking another game for a very long time through the source code, (and so the game could be easily edited as you like), it is a bit strange to see you are fine without it.

But who said we don't? It's right here.


I already saw some of source code projects, but they seem so unpopular here...

Moving SMW hacking to new level of editing several versions of source code disassemblies (like Sonic The Hedgehog hacking) could fix all problems with misunderstanding of code.

But why this idea do not meet respect here? Why do you still use rom editors though SMW hacking is already 13 years old?

WHY??

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With best wishes,
Narcologer
Most people just want to make a mario game and not worry so much about it. The tools here are user friendly enough to do that, so it attracts people. Not everyone wants to push boundaries or whatever.

The reason SMW hacking is as big as it is is due to the user friendly tools that let you jump in and make a game.
Originally posted by Narcologer
I already saw some of source code projects, but they seem so unpopular here...

Moving SMW hacking to new level of editing several versions of source code disassemblies (like Sonic The Hedgehog hacking) could fix all problems with misunderstanding of code.

But why this idea do not meet respect here? Why do you still use rom editors though SMW hacking is already 13 years old?

WHY??

because fusoya and also people think doing anything beyond level editing is unnecessary apparently because it'll scare off newbies who don't want to do anything beyond just that?

i hate it too

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HackPortsASM"Uploader"

Originally posted by Narcologer
Moving SNW hacking to new level of editing several versions of source code disassemblies (like Sonic The Hedgehog hacking) could fix all problems with misunderstanding of code.

Stop assuming everyone would be able to program if given proper tools.

Quote
But why this idea do not meet respect here? Why do you still use rom editors though SMW hacking is 13 years old?

Because nobody has made any tools like that. Maybe you'll be the first?

(also SMW hacking is at least 17 years old. LM 1.00 was in September 2000, and people hacked SMW before that.)

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<blm> zsnes users are the flatearthers of emulation
Originally posted by Alcaro
Quote
But why this idea do not meet respect here? Why do you still use rom editors though SMW hacking is 13 years old?

Because nobody has made any tools like that. Maybe you'll be the first?

Alcaro we may have our misunderstandings from time to time but I still like you as a person but I gotta say this

Can we please stop replying to "why is SMW hacking the way it is" posts this way?
It just makes people less likely to help you out on that regard.

Your earlier point is correct, it'd just make programming easier for those that already know ASM (just making sure we're in the same page here)

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HackPortsASM"Uploader"

Originally posted by lion
because fusoya and also people think doing anything beyond level editing is unnecessary apparently because it'll scare off newbies who don't want to do anything beyond just that?

You haven't seen the positive reception that hacks like Yoshi's Quest and Extra Mario World have gotten?

Whenever this topic comes up, a lot of people make comparisons to the Sonic hacking community but the difference there is that they've had disassemblies of the classic games for more than a decade*. The SMW disassembly is a lot younger and we're slowly seeing more people taking advantage of it, it'll just take time.

*Plus they're Sonic fans and you know how fanatical those can be lol

Originally posted by lion
Can we please stop replying to "why is SMW hacking the way it is" posts this way?
It just makes people less likely to help you out on that regard.

If there was that much interest in the kinds of tools you're describing, someone would've already made those tools though, no?

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Originally posted by lion
Originally posted by Narcologer
I already saw some of source code projects, but they seem so unpopular here...

Moving SMW hacking to new level of editing several versions of source code disassemblies (like Sonic The Hedgehog hacking) could fix all problems with misunderstanding of code.

But why this idea do not meet respect here? Why do you still use rom editors though SMW hacking is already 13 years old?

WHY??

because fusoya and also people think doing anything beyond level editing is unnecessary apparently because it'll scare off newbies who don't want to do anything beyond just that?

i hate it too


I'm in favor of making this. I bet that if there was a poll for this, it would be more popular than people think it would be.
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