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So many Kaizos
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - So many Kaizos
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I think the hating on kaizo is honestly pretty unnecessary (and I know how that reads when I was initially against the sections merging years ago because back then I was worried about this happening lol) because the reality of rom hacking like this is it's always going to be community driven. If there are more people playing/watching/making kaizo hacks, there's going to be more kaizo hacks. Plain and simple. Frankly, I think people should be excited that more kaizo hacks are coming out because certain ideas will end up filtering down into normal hacks. Gimmicks and weird sprite combinations and the such will probably start popping up in regular hacks inspired from the kaizo hacks.

But I also think this is partially due to a pushback -against- easier hacks by the very people who play them. It's not enough for a short vanilla-ish hack to be submitted to the site anymore. Nobody will play it. Your hack needs to be a full game, have crazy gimmicks every level, have full custom ASM/graphics/etc etc, or any combination of the above for people to notice it at this point. Kaizo isn't in the same position because of a burst of popularity, meaning there's something fresh being brought to the table constantly, and they just naturally don't seem to end up needing to be 96 exit epics. This isn't the first time this has happened to regular hacks, mind you. The original VLDC was meant to be a counterpoint to all that as it is, being a level design contest where you submit one level and only use lunar magic, at a time when your hack needed exgfx and custom sprites to be considered "good"

A good idea I saw mentioned here was the "multiple options for filtering difficulty" one. I think checkboxes and you can untick the difficulties you don't want would work really well. I've kinda been wanting that feature myself since I'm bad at Mario and would want to look at just easy and normal hacks at the same time sometimes.

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Originally posted by Romano338
I've seen it on Grand Poo World 2.

It's worth noting that four of the negative comments on Grand Poo World 2 were all posted by the same person who re-registered accounts 4 times just to post negative comments and ratings. We have obviously banned the person and their alternate accounts for this, as well as deleted the comments and ratings.

I don't really have anything to add to the topic, but I generally agree with Teyla's first paragraph. Making hacks for streamers is popular, so we will see a lot of hacks made for streamers. That's just how it goes.
Originally posted by NaroGugul
Everything i read lately turns into kaizo hate..

like that "most hacks are meh" (or something like that).. that topic quickly was turning into a kaizo hate topic.


Nah that's a generally uncontroversial statement because Sturgeon's Law rings true and is replicable across different medias. Its only one person in that thread who is derailing it badly for his rudeness while the OP wasn't encouraging people to hate on it as-is a clear personal preference. I do hope he can make his hack the way he wants to.

Originally posted by Teyla
But I also think this is partially due to a pushback -against- easier hacks by the very people who play them. It's not enough for a short vanilla-ish hack to be submitted to the site anymore. Nobody will play it. Your hack needs to be a full game, have crazy gimmicks every level, have full custom ASM/graphics/etc etc, or any combination of the above for people to notice it at this point. Kaizo isn't in the same position because of a burst of popularity, meaning there's something fresh being brought to the table constantly, and they just naturally don't seem to end up needing to be 96 exit epics. This isn't the first time this has happened to regular hacks, mind you. The original VLDC was meant to be a counterpoint to all that as it is, being a level design contest where you submit one level and only use lunar magic, at a time when your hack needed exgfx and custom sprites to be considered "good"


What pushback? It doesn't exist. And it has never been enough for any vanilla hack for people to notice just bc its vanilla. What people noticed on those hacks wasn't necessarily that the hacks were vanilla but they themselves had level designs that were at least creative that got the attention of people in the first place.


While I don't encourage Kaizo hate, people should really just ignore the hacks that isn't for their tastes.

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On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept free work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that second part. I do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me. I am more receptive to paid work and equivalent exchange of resources (trades) in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details and we can work something out. If not, then don't DM unless absolutely necessary.



Originally posted by Teyla
I think the hating on kaizo is honestly pretty unnecessary (and I know how that reads when I was initially against the sections merging years ago because back then I was worried about this happening lol) because the reality of rom hacking like this is it's always going to be community driven. If there are more people playing/watching/making kaizo hacks, there's going to be more kaizo hacks. Plain and simple. Frankly, I think people should be excited that more kaizo hacks are coming out because certain ideas will end up filtering down into normal hacks. Gimmicks and weird sprite combinations and the such will probably start popping up in regular hacks inspired from the kaizo hacks.

But I also think this is partially due to a pushback -against- easier hacks by the very people who play them. It's not enough for a short vanilla-ish hack to be submitted to the site anymore. Nobody will play it. Your hack needs to be a full game, have crazy gimmicks every level, have full custom ASM/graphics/etc etc, or any combination of the above for people to notice it at this point. Kaizo isn't in the same position because of a burst of popularity, meaning there's something fresh being brought to the table constantly, and they just naturally don't seem to end up needing to be 96 exit epics. This isn't the first time this has happened to regular hacks, mind you. The original VLDC was meant to be a counterpoint to all that as it is, being a level design contest where you submit one level and only use lunar magic, at a time when your hack needed exgfx and custom sprites to be considered "good"

A good idea I saw mentioned here was the "multiple options for filtering difficulty" one. I think checkboxes and you can untick the difficulties you don't want would work really well. I've kinda been wanting that feature myself since I'm bad at Mario and would want to look at just easy and normal hacks at the same time sometimes.


The reason why 96 exit kaizo hacks don't exist is because that would be miserable to play lol

Also the kaizo trend isn't from pushback from people who play "normal" hacks because those people don't exist. There's maybe a handful of regulars on SMWC who still care about creating/playing hacks and aren't in either the kaizo community or one of the large collabs going on.

Also, it's no secret that the quality of non-kaizo hacks has been going severely downhill after the past couple years, while the opposite has been happening with kaizo.

You mention that kaizo doesn't need ASM, crazy gimmicks, etc. The reality is that kaizo hacks being released have those things, and large majority of the non-kaizos coming out nowadays lack those things.

I don't really see elements of design/style trickling down into regular hacks because the design style is quite different between each. A kaizo hack isn't any more creative than a non-kaizo one, but it certainly can be. Kaizo hacks have less weird sprite combos because there's less of an emphasis on enemy-interaction and moreso on platforming. I still think the quality of the average kaizo hack being released nowadays is quite a bit above the average non-kaizo.
You know, if more kaizos come out that are as well designed as Grand Poo World 2, I wouldn't mind playing them. Even if I'll never ever be able to beat one all the way.

I just want some decent platforming. Most kaizos intimidate me.
Man, I love Kaizo.
But if you didn't know, by the hack names it shows the hack DIFFICULTY. Maybe try and take a look at that. You could also filter the kaizo level out, so I believe there's really no need for an extra kaizo thread. Just ignore them and stop complaining, because there's a lot of people (like me) that really don't wanna hear people complain about other people's preferences. And also, I heard someone say something about their being no restrictions in Lunar Magic, so people make the kaizos. Thats not entirely true (I can indeed say that, just take a look at my footer). People usually make kaizos for their friends or favorite streamer and call it Super [Insert Name of Recipient] World, and could be extremely fun. It's just another side of the ROM hacking community, and you'll just have to deal with it and stay on your side without complaining about it.

By the way, I'm not trying to be rude to the poster of this thread or anything, just posting my opinion on the matter.
Vote for Armaidia or I will take your Robux.
Originally posted by debug001
People usually make kaizos for their friends or favorite streamer and call it Super [Insert Name of Recipient] World, and could be extremely fun.

People should stop that doing that too and come up with wittier and more well thought out names for their hacks. :/
Super [BLANK] World is becoming massively tedious, at this point.
I don't really understand the problem with this. Even when kaizo was a fairly new thing, there were still a lot of these kinds of hacks being created. What's the main difference nowadays? Accessibility.

I remember when Kaizo Mario 1-2 were new and they were the way to start back in the early days. People weren't as skilled (or patient?) with these kinds of hacks and they were passing them by spamming a bunch of savestates (there were expections though, such as that guy Takemoto challenged when he created Kaizo Mario). Many people were desperate to make the hardest possible levels that exceed even human abilities and were pretty much TAS games. A lot of people were thinking that only the difficulty matters in kaizo hacks, and that aesthetics or the fun factor are a low priority (at least for the majority of old kaizo hack creators IMO).

However after some time people started to create easier, more accessible kaizo hacks that are very challenging but they can be beaten without any tool assistance. Now we have many hacks that are easier than Kaizo Mario 1, as well as really tough challenges that despite their difficulty can still be completed without the need of savestates. People also try out more gimmicks for them to make them more visually pleasing or original.

Anyway, in short, if you don't like kaizo hacks, you aren't forced to play them. There's still a bunch of people who enjoy playing/creating/watching them and there's no need to stop them if they enjoy what they do.
#smw{-_-2} Clearly this thread was getting nowhere since everything is misinterpreted. I guess I should blame myself for not being clear enough about what I was trying to get across when I made this thread. All I'm wanting is:

The fact that this got turned into a typical "Haters gonna Hate - Kaizo edition" argument where many of you think this is a "Kaizo bashing" thread only proves what Plasmodium00 said. Just feeding the trolls. It also proves that none of you noticed a previous reply I made where I said:

Originally posted by Darkness-light
Many of you have misunderstood what I'm saying. I don't HATE kaizos NOR do I want them gone or decreased. I LOVE watching TASes of them. I'm saying that since the popularity of Kaizos have lead to a mass influx of uploads recently, that I think we should now have a subsection specifically for Kaizos. Guys this should be a win/win for EVERYONE. They'd be in their own sections. That way, if you only want Kaizos, you'll have a kaizo section. If you're like me and only want adventurous hacks, you'd have a section for that, too. It'd be more organized and easier to navigate through without the burden of sorting through the ones that you don't want. That's all I'm trying to get across. This ain't an "Anti-Kaizo" thread. So please, put your guns away.


I'm hoping this will solve this issue of mass-missunderstanding. Oh, let's be honest, it probably won't.#smw{¬_¬}
Originally posted by Darkness-light
#smw{-_-2} Clearly this thread was getting nowhere since everything is misinterpreted. I guess I should blame myself for not being clear enough about what I was trying to get across when I made this thread. All I'm wanting is:

The fact that this got turned into a typical "Haters gonna Hate - Kaizo edition" argument where many of you think this is a "Kaizo bashing" thread only proves what Plasmodium00 said. Just feeding the trolls. It also proves that none of you noticed a previous reply I made where I said:

Originally posted by Darkness-light
Many of you have misunderstood what I'm saying. I don't HATE kaizos NOR do I want them gone or decreased. I LOVE watching TASes of them. I'm saying that since the popularity of Kaizos have lead to a mass influx of uploads recently, that I think we should now have a subsection specifically for Kaizos. Guys this should be a win/win for EVERYONE. They'd be in their own sections. That way, if you only want Kaizos, you'll have a kaizo section. If you're like me and only want adventurous hacks, you'd have a section for that, too. It'd be more organized and easier to navigate through without the burden of sorting through the ones that you don't want. That's all I'm trying to get across. This ain't an "Anti-Kaizo" thread. So please, put your guns away.


I'm hoping this will solve this issue of mass-missunderstanding. Oh, let's be honest, it probably won't.#smw{¬_¬}


Still, are you sure it's worth all that trouble of creating a new section considering you can simply filter out the hacks by difficulty? In the end, your "Kaizo section" it's only a few buttons away...

This is like saying we should have a SMW Sampled Music and a SMW Unsample Music sections. If someone just loves samples and hates unsampled or the other way around, they will get the filter to work and the same applies to Kaizo. If we didn't have that advanced search feature I could understand you thinking, but not now.
Quote
Still, are you sure it's worth all that trouble of creating a new section considering you can simply filter out the hacks by difficulty? In the end, your "Kaizo section" it's only a few buttons away...


If the admins and staff could go with that suggestion in the picture, then I won't feel the need to want a separate kaizo section.
Originally posted by Darkness-light
If the admins and staff could go with that suggestion in the picture, then I won't feel the need to want a separate kaizo section.

All that's needed is this:



Yet another section to add to the menu seems pointless if you ask me.


i think the fact that there are two seperate categories for kaizo speaks volumes on how oversaturated the "genre" is.
i think theres only so many times we can do unfairly hard hacks before it looses its charm.
kaizo def shouldnt be killed no, but i think we need more variety before it gets to that point.

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i like it security
looking to get itf+ certificate this year
thats all


Originally posted by Maxodex

All that's needed is this:



Yet another section to add to the menu seems pointless if you ask me.

That would be great

Originally posted by Omxga
i think the fact that there are two seperate categories for kaizo speaks volumes on how oversaturated the "genre" is.
i think theres only so many times we can do unfairly hard hacks before it looses its charm.
kaizo def shouldnt be killed no, but i think we need more variety before it gets to that point.


I totally agree.
Originally posted by Omxga
i think the fact that there are two seperate categories for kaizo speaks volumes on how oversaturated the "genre" is.

not really. "kaizo" is a blanket term, kaizo:light and kaizo:hard have different goals and design philosophies that are only similar on the surface level.

the fact that kaizo:hard requires some degree of tool-assistance means it's inherently very exclusive and niche. nearly all the kaizo:hard hackers have retired from the format due to how involved creating it is, and the audience for playing them is just as slim due to how few people want to break out the slowdown, frame advance, and savestates (at bare minimum) just to play a mario game.

there are 123 kaizo:light hacks right now, compared to 30 kaizo:hard hacks. i think it's arguable as to whether they should even be categorized similarly, but the hacks section has been codified for 5 years, and most people search kaizo:light anyway, so i think it would be a pretty pointless change regardless.
Originally posted by MercuryPenny
the fact that kaizo:hard requires some degree of tool-assistance means it's inherently very exclusive and niche. nearly all the kaizo:hard hackers have retired from the format due to how involved creating it is, and the audience for playing them is just as slim due to how few people want to break out the slowdown, frame advance, and savestates (at bare minimum) just to play a mario game.

I certainly don't blame them, especially if they have any full-time jobs. If I were to make another Kaizo hard (as in 'above Kaizo medium' which is lately more in line with what I like to make) it would probably have to be a standalone single-level hack. I might actually be thankful that the Mario Maker series lacks emulator tools.

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Legacy custom music


How am I so creative? I think taking walks might have something to do with it.
Every single level I will ever make in SMM2 will be easier than Ultra Necrozma.
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