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The Troll Hack Feedback/Q&A/F.A.Q. Thread ™
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - The Troll Hack Feedback/Q&A/F.A.Q. Thread ™
Pages: « 1 2 »
In your opinion is the addition of the Troll hacks fine?
Votes: 1 2.7%
Votes: 15 40.5%
Votes: 3 8.1%
Votes: 1 2.7%
Votes: 17 45.9%
Total voters: 37
After the addition of the Troll Hacks to the Hacks section I saw a lot of confused statements by various people, so I decided to go ahead and create this thread. I’ll clear up some points on the guidelines that were misinterpreted, and I’ll do my best to answer your questions in the clearest way possible. Please be serious with the questions; any joke/rude questions will be ignored. Once you’ve read the guidelines, I’ll also accept any form of proper feedback about the decision in this thread if it’s formulated in a nice manner and is not aggressive or immature.
Before answering your questions I’m going to ask you a question: what is your opinion about the addition of the Troll Hacks? I’ll leave a poll in this thread with 5 options.


Frequently Asked Questions

Here I’ll put some questions that have been asked me directly and/or indirectly right after the addition of the Troll Hacks. Hopefully those will clear some doubts right away.

Q. : What is the difference between Joke and Troll?
A. : The answer is in the guidelines. I realize that the explanation is a bit condensed but I wanted to avoid situations where the user would just gloss over a big wall of text. If you want a more in-depth explanation, refer to this thread. I chose to differentiate between the 2 terms just to avoid any confusion and, apparently, I failed. Hopefully that thread will clear up any doubts left.

Q. : Why add Troll Hacks in the first place?
A. : This is a question I saw pop up at least 5 times in the 10 minutes after the announcement was posted. The answer is very simple: There’s a thriving hacking community dedicated to the creation of Troll Hacks in SMW, a discord with more than 100 users, a little hosting site and plenty of YouTube videos with thousands of views. Therefore, it would be a waste to not open our community to hosting such hacks (since there are very, and I repeat, very good ones). We decided it would be appropriate for them to have their separate difficulty and guidelines, because adding them without new guidelines would’ve caused even more confusion.

Q. : Why Troll Hacks and not [insert hack type here]?
A. : The reasons for this vary from type to type. 1) Maybe the hacks section already accepts these kind of hacks and you just haven’t seen them. 2) Maybe that hack type would be inappropriate for a site like SMW Central. 3) Or we just didn’t think of it, we’re humans and errors happen. Give us time. I promise we’re working on advancing.

Q. : Why add it as a difficulty and not as a Hacks sub-section?
A. : Since it’s a relatively small addition I didn’t want to bother the Site Coder too much, I figured adding it as a new “section” of the Hacks would’ve required a bigger coding effort so I figured just adding it as a difficulty would suffice.

Q. : But now the section will be cluttered with troll hacks! What will I do?
A. : No, it won’t. You can easily filter them out with the search function, and it won’t impede in any way with the way the section works. You can still play your hacks and kaizo hacks in any way you wish to do so, we differentiated them for a reason :P.

Q. : Who are the new mods? Why were they picked if they had 0 posts on SMWCentral? Are you guys hiring streamers just because they stream?
A. : First of all, why should post count influence the way new moderators/staff are picked? We have hired staff members will few or no posts in the past based on the quality of their work or skills. Secondly, they were chosen because they are very involved in the SMW hacking community outside of SMWC , they are both very interested in the moderation of Troll Hacks and they are both admins of the Romhack Races community. Romhack Races is an organization of volunteers that prepares kaizo level races every Saturday and non-kaizo hacks races on most Mondays. If you wish to check out more of what they do, consider joining their Discord in the site linked above. They weren’t solely chosen because they were streamers; as a matter of fact, one of them doesn’t even stream period.
im sorry if i somehow sound offensive and i wont go any further since i was already warned about "offensive behaviorism", ill just copy/paste what i wrote on other thread:

Quote
I mean, there are so many ways the website could be improved that were already discussed earlier (improved kaizo hacks section, puzzle section, smb, smb2, smb3 sections). This new troll section seem just a sudden way to 'include' some dumb hacks and people to the site. I really have a hard time envisioning a full multiple exits quality hack submitted to that section to justify its existence.

That said, to everyone who reads my messages, keep in mind thats just a nobody´s opinion.. im in no way involved with the website or have any decision power... they do what they want, and thats about it.
As someone who has been following the development of Troll levels ever since they started with CarlSagan42's Troll Level Design Contest on Super Mario Maker (And in fact, even before that, with the Carl vs Poo series), i'm very pleased to see these hacks getting some recognition, and seeing them have a place here on SMWC!

During this time, i've seen many great hacks being made, each of them showing incredible amounts of creativity and bringing fresh ideas to the table, as well as having a great design and providing a lot of fun for the people playing and watching them.

I'll honestly say that i'm pretty disappointed with the amount of hate this new addition has been getting without having even started, people who didn't spend 2 minutes of their time to search and learn about these hacks and the community around them are just calling them stupid for no reason and saying it shouldn't exist for the sole reason of them not liking it.

I really hope these people will get to learn more about these hacks, and be able to enjoy them, or at the very least accept the fact that there are people who like them, and even if it is a niche category, these people deserve a place to have them hosted, just like any other category of hack.

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My Youtube Channel
Never actually heard of these hacks somehow, or maybe I've seen them and didn't know they had a name. But, if it's got a decent size community behind it, it's only going to bring more activity to this site which is by all means, a good thing.

Just because it's not something much of the userbase want here, we should still support it and bring other new communities. Won't really affect me, but I'm still for it *thumbs up thing goes here*
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Come and play Minecraft with us!

Originally posted by NaroGugul
I mean, there are so many ways the website could be improved that were already discussed earlier (improved kaizo hacks section, puzzle section, smb, smb2, smb3 sections). This new troll section seem just a sudden way to 'include' some dumb hacks and people to the site. I really have a hard time envisioning a full multiple exits quality hack submitted to that section to justify its existence.

i'd like to clarify some things:

firstly, this - like other projects, does not take the entire staff to accomplish. just because we pushed troll hacks out doesn't mean we stopped working on other things. your suggestions - smb hacking et co, are not things we are currently interested in pursuing. we are a smw hacking site first - we have welcomed yoshi's island and super mario 64 here, but we do not have plans to expand our reach into other forms of mario hacking at this current point in time.

secondly, i'm not too sure how nice it is to call both troll hacks and their authors dumb.

lastly, i do not anticipate us hosting a whole lot of troll hacks, to be honest. we have "pit" as a category, yet it only has 14 entries. but those submissions have their fans - and whenever someone does a TAS of a pit hack, it gets linked back to us. now, for those looking for notable troll hacks, we'll host them. if streamers play them, they can link them back here. i initially suggested this to be implemented as i felt it was more inclusive to mario hackers, but i'm kinda confused how divisive it's been.
ok.. firstly, let me clarify i never called any author dumb. The hacks indeed are not my cup of tea. And im sorry if i exagerate on my way to communicate, its just my way of stating things, and i cant find a better word other than dumb.. i would probably do better if was on my native language.

secondly, Im not saying the site should allow smb or anything.. my point is there is (or was i have no idea how things are nowdays) demand for certain things and had been brought to the table a few times and either ignored or just got rejected for whatever reason.

Point being, its just utterly weird to just create out of nowhere a new category that doesnt even have a real demand or represents a expressive style or difficulty for that matter.. it could even be just thrown inside a 'joke' category, which has been neglected/avoided for long (cough Diagonal 2 cough)..

And sure, we all love to watch Carl and Juz reactions when falling to the dumbest trolls and traps.. but does it relate to the average player? i personally dont think so.


*** and btw.. im not asking to remove the section or reject hacks or whatever.. whats done is done... im just stating my opinion about it (which nowdays is apparently the worst thing one can have;;; opinion is a sin my friends)
Damn, this hacking thing is getting too hard. NOW I have to think of an elaborate joke to make it fun
Originally posted by NaroGugul
secondly, Im not saying the site should allow smb or anything.. my point is there is (or was i have no idea how things are nowdays) demand for certain things and had been brought to the table a few times and either ignored or just got rejected for whatever reason.

there's also been suggestions for the site that have been implemented. spc player in the music section, watching threads, being able to gallery view in the resource sections, and running numerous contests that have been suggested by the community. not every idea is implemented.

Originally posted by NaroGugul
its just utterly weird to just create out of nowhere a new category that doesnt even have a real demand or represents a expressive style or difficulty for that matter.. it could even be just thrown inside a 'joke' category, which has been neglected/avoided for long (cough Diagonal 2 cough)..

difference between joke hacks and troll hacks is that usually troll hacks are expected to have a higher bar of effort. we don't have a joke hack section currently, because anyone and their dog can and probably has made a jokey hack of basic 105 edits and bat palettes. hell, take a look at each c3 and the "SMW but x is y" threads. troll hacks at least expect that thought is put into each setup because they by nature ask the designer to think about how the player will play the level.

as for demand, the fact that a website was created to host smw troll hacks was already enough to show that there's an interest in having a single accessible location for notable troll hacks.

finally, diagonal mario 2 was removed for intentional game crashes. smwcentral asks for a bar of quality for submissions, and a line has to be drawn somewhere. not to dig up old wounds, but the author was asked that if they removed that it'd be fine to accept - and instead they chose not to submit it again. the lack of a joke category was not the issue there.

Originally posted by NaroGugul
but does it relate to the average player? i personally dont think so.

do pit hacks relate to the average player? hell, does kaizo: hard relate to the average player? this point confuses me.

Originally posted by NaroGugul
im just stating my opinion about it (which nowdays is apparently the worst thing one can have;;; opinion is a sin my friends)

no one said you can't have an opinion. but if you want an opinion and don't want feedback on it, then you probably shouldn't post it. i don't mean to come off as harsh, but i'm not sure how else to respond to a comment like this.
I guess I can understand how some people here feel: there has been some talk about changing the hacks difficulty system of the site up until the point some users consider it pretty important and urgent, and now that a new type of hack is added and one that, at first glance, can be confused with joke hacks (of course there are differences, but for one user without context it could be difficult to distinguish them), their confusion is increased. I think, however, that it's a good way to promote a new type of hack that may attract new people to the site.
I think i was misunderstood
Quote
do pit hacks relate to the average player?

put this way this statement could be made with any kind of hack.. I myself havent downloaded anything but kaizo:light in ages..

But anyway.. there are 2 points that have to be made here:

1 - Even tho it doesnt have an expressive demand, Pit hacks represent an expressive style and difficulty, which require deeper and specialized knowledge of smw, therefore its justifiable its own section

2 - As ive stated before (on removed posts) troll hacks almost intrinsically require an audience and someone to have a reaction from. Its just like youtube prank videos. It exists for the purpose of entertaining people other than the one that is being trolled.. the troll is as good as the reaction of the player... in other words, its made to be watched, not to be played if you get what i mean.. that way, i personally dont think it relate to the average player who plays on their room alone..

(of course, there are people who like being trolled and bla bla bla.. i really dont want to get there and give weird examples as i did before)


NOW, this to me is really confusing
Quote
if you want an opinion and don't want feedback on it

so do i ever not taken a feedback? what do you mean by it? that i should just accept it when there are still arguments to be made on my part?
i honestly dont understand what you are trying to say..
And ive said many times, i sometimes am wrong, and i totally understand it, and i reserve the right to change my mind at any moment.. but so far none of other opinions changed my opinion in the slightest
@NaroGugul if you don't like them, just don't play them. No need to kill everyone else's fun.

Is profanity allowed in troll hacks?
have you ever read anything ive wrote?
its obviously im not playing them

thats not the point at all
Originally posted by NaraGugul
2 - As ive stated before (on removed posts) troll hacks almost intrinsically require an audience and someone to have a reaction from. Its just like youtube prank videos. It exists for the purpose of entertaining people other than the one that is being trolled.. the troll is as good as the reaction of the player... in other words, its made to be watched, not to be played if you get what i mean.. that way, i personally dont think it relate to the average player who plays on their room alone..


This is a fair reason. A lot of the appeal of troll hacks come from the reaction of the player. I'm not sure how much people would be willing to just play through a troll hack on their own when a million other hacks exist for them to play. These types of hacks are more for people that upload YouTube videos or stream on Twitch. There's nothing wrong with that, but I question how much of SMWC's users fit the target demographic. Sometimes it feels like everyone is so concerned about "good level design" that troll hacks feel out of place.

That said, I'm not opposed to troll hacks being on the site by any means. It's an understandable inclusion, just feels like an odd one, at least to me.
Originally posted by NaroGugul
2 - As ive stated before (on removed posts) troll hacks almost intrinsically require an audience and someone to have a reaction from.

oh definitely - again, i'd compare this to pit though: pit hacks are not hacks most people are gonna play, they're gonna want to watch videos of it online and see how crazy it is. of course there are people who do play pit hacks to master them, but there will also be people who play troll hacks on their own just to have a fun time.

but you're definitely right that the primary focus of troll hacks is for the audience. but, again, those audiences can be redirected to our site if they wanna check it out. plus, we can have a permanent space here for those troll hacks, rather than having to find them in youtube comments, discord links, or the troll hack site.

as for the last part naro, the point is i'm not sure why you even complained about not being allowed to have an opinion in the first place. but i'm thinking that maybe our language barrier is just contributing to a lot more arguing than is necessary.

Originally posted by Mandagary
Is profanity allowed in troll hacks?

yeah you could probably say fuck or cock or other shit in a troll hack, but we'll probably be unhappy / reject if you're using slurs or hateful words.
Troll hacks aren't my favorite hack genre but hey, maybe that will change one day in the future, who knows. Regardless, it's fine if they are here, especially since it will grow the site. There's a good audience for them and that's what matters. As a huge proponent of Kaizo, I remember a day long ago when everyone thought that accepting kaizo was a horrible idea and that every kaizo level was garbage. Of course, look where we are now lol

Anyway, something I have noticed is that the "difficulty" filter is becoming more and more confusing. At this point, it doesn't really reflect the idea of varying "difficulty". Perhaps it should be renamed to "category" or something? And then difficulty would be a separate filter?

I'm fine with Troll being one of the categories. But as we begin to accept more and more types of hacks, and as alternative hacks grow (on and off smwc), it makes less sense to add things to "difficulty". In essence, the concept of difficulty cannot be separated by distinct categories. Rather, difficulty is scale, and it goes from super easy to super tough. The style of the hack doesn't really affect that scale. However, we should also have easy ways to filter hacks beyond the rather confusing tag system, so a hack category filter is definitely necessary. I hope this wasn't too much of a thread hijack, but yeah.

Edit: I also noticed that Troll comes after Pit in the difficulty listing. Even if nothing I suggested gets implemented, having troll after pit is sorta odd cause it almost implies they are harder than pit. It should probably go between very hard and kaizo light, or between kaizo light and kaizo hard.
I was going to reply to Naro's post but idol pretty much said everything.
Originally posted by Narogugul
(which nowdays is apparently the worst thing one can have;;; opinion is a sin my friends)

Also everyone is welcome to have an opinion Naro, I wouldn't consider it a sin, it's just the matter on how you express that opinion. There's no need to be rude while doing it, just be friendly and explain things without using derogatory words, there's a time and a way to express disagreement and this
Originally posted by Narogugul
This new troll section seem just a sudden way to 'include' some dumb hacks and people to the site.
is not polite in any way to people who put effort into their creations. I can understand that you're not a native english speaker but I'm not one either and I can find other words to use to describe what you said.

To answer gbreeze's post:
Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
Anyway, something I have noticed is that the "difficulty" filter is becoming more and more confusing. At this point, it doesn't really reflect the idea of varying "difficulty". Perhaps it should be renamed to "category" or something? And then difficulty would be a separate filter?

I thought about doing this already. Look out for changes in the next few weeks.

Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
I'm fine with Troll being one of the categories. But as we begin to accept more and more types of hacks, and as alternative hacks grow (on and off smwc), it makes less sense to add things to "difficulty". In essence, the concept of difficulty cannot be separated by distinct categories. Rather, difficulty is scale, and it goes from super easy to super tough. The style of the hack doesn't really affect that scale. However, we should also have easy ways to filter hacks beyond the rather confusing tag system, so a hack category filter is definitely necessary. I hope this wasn't too much of a thread hijack, but yeah.


Your suggestion was taken under consideration (by me at least). I'm thinking of a way to implement some of it without destroying the way we host hacks now. I want to change some stuff to add more clarity to the hacks section anyway.

Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
Edit: I also noticed that Troll comes after Pit in the difficulty listing. Even if nothing I suggested gets implemented, having troll after pit is sorta odd cause it almost implies they are harder than pit. It should probably go between very hard and kaizo light, or between kaizo light and kaizo hard.

Good idea. I'm gonna ask for it to be moved between Very Hard and Kaizo.
Quote
I can understand that you're not a native english speaker but I'm not one either and I can find other words to use to describe what you said.


im really sorry if my vocabulary isnt as broad as yours
I didn't even know there was a community for troll hacks and a special site for them at all. I thought troll hacks were hard to make fun, but since they've got proponents, who knows if I won't become one in future? I don't mind anyone playing them on their own and raging the freak out or watching anyone do that. I'm not currently interested in those, but if a real good troll hack appears, I might be.

I wouldn't have said that if there hadn't been an explanation why you wanted to host them in the first place. I would've normally hated them if I hadn't learned they could be made fun easily. It's just my choice whether or not I want to play them.


Originally posted by NaroGugul
I mean, there are so many ways the website could be improved that were already discussed earlier (improved kaizo hacks section, puzzle section, smb, smb2, smb3 sections). This new troll section seem just a sudden way to 'include' some dumb hacks and people to the site. I really have a hard time envisioning a full multiple exits quality hack submitted to that section to justify its existence.

I also was concerned about this thing. They would just learn what a good troll hack should be like, just like anyone whose first hacks were terrible. They can also discover new genres like kaizo or puzzle hacks that way.


Originally posted by idol
cock

That would depend on context it's used in. It's not only a vulgar name of manly genitals, but also a different word for a rooster.

As for profanity used in troll hacks, why would it be disallowed there in the first place if we host a few hacks with cusses already? Not a lot of the hacks here contain them cuz people who are sensitive to such words also play them. If there's significant amount of them in a hack, they should be given a mature content tag.


Originally posted by NaroGugul
Quote
I can understand that you're not a native english speaker but I'm not one either and I can find other words to use to describe what you said.


im really sorry if my vocabulary isnt as broad as yours

Whenever I don't know a word in English, but I do in my native language and vice versa, I use internet dictionary. It's a lot more useful than Google Translate whenever you want to communicate with others and helps you express what you want to state as well as in your native language. It also broadens your vocabularity.

(Sorry if I derailed the subject with the last three paragraphs.)

Fake edit: Ninja'd
Any reason as to why 7 Up has different logos in USA and the rest of the world?
Something what I don't really like in how troll hacks are handled is the difficulty. The idea is that some troll games are incredibly difficult and would be equal to very hard or Kaizo difficulty (IWBTG is the most famous Kaizo-Troll game) but other troll games are more reasonable (can't think any example). This contrast with joke hacks which are marked with a tag, not with a difficulty (just look how many joke hacks are normal, how many are hard and how many are Kaizo!).

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Okay, my layout looks ugly.
Originally posted by MarioFanGamer
Something what I don't really like in how troll hacks are handled is the difficulty. The idea is that some troll games are incredibly difficult and would be equal to very hard or Kaizo difficulty (IWBTG is the most famous Kaizo-Troll game) but other troll games are more reasonable (can't think any example). This contrast with joke hacks which are marked with a tag, not with a difficulty (just look how many joke hacks are normal, how many are hard and how many are Kaizo!).

We used the difficulty tag for a lack of a better term. As I said to gbreeze, I want to revamp the hack section a bit, just by rearranging the selection and whatnot. Also a lot of "joke" hacks have that tag placed inappropriately imo. As I said in the faq, usually proper troll hacks are not harder than a "Hard hack". Soon this will be addressed tho. Thanks for the feedback
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